Cross build and mid build

Discussion in 'Gameplay Mechanics' started by I_kill_satan, Aug 15, 2014.

  1. Akitos

    Akitos Member

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    I only said that your claim* that there is more people playing LTD on bnet without bots than with bots is false. Tho I might've gotten you wrong there and you meant 10% bots +2% user; if that's the case it's still FAR from truth tho. There is close to no user hosted games at all, maybe 0,01% compared to the bot hosted LTD games. I didn't mention other services such as Garena; which I know exist. Anyway, while you're at it: those places are a joke. I've played LTD on other services and the quality of games there is extremly low, especially on Garena which is the biggest of them as far as I know. The most people I met there weren't even able to speak english. Everything that is not ENT 1,2k+/LIHL cannot be taken serious in terms of LTD, and that's a fact. I challenge you to proove me wrong. Either by playing me or telling me another place than ENT where I'm supposed to find quality LTD matches. I'll gladly try them out if I haven't already.

    *
     
  2. ithion

    ithion Member

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    I never ever would claim that, if you read the line you quoted again you'll se I said there is atleast 5 times as many using bots, then not. When playing on bnet. Maybe the number is way way higher, but the point is the same. That those using bnet at all, with or without bots, are a small minority. What has english with to do with anything? One is not a noob just because one was born in the "wrong" country. Brazil, 150 million people. China, 1400 million. East europe, another 50-100 million. The rest of south africa and east asia... another 1-300 million.
    I used garena because the quality there was way, waaaay higher then bnet. You probably just met the wrong people or rooms. Noobs and idiots are everywhere though. And arranging a game is easier on a platform as garena then bnet. Aslong as one has friends enough. The first pro Legion player who really figured out the income/low value strats, Lagartootemido never used bnet even once. And an insane amount of asians and others never do either. As I swede though I cannot use garena anymore though and most of my Legion friends got tired of the game because we had already done everything possible, bad or good, so many times there was nothing left to explore. And the quality and maps on bnet made me bored and I stopped playing ltd because the variation was to low. The balance to bad, it was all about knowledge about the map played, instead of skills and unique strategies. There is a diffrent about knowing the best strategy for one map, and using skills to press value/income hard. I can't stand maps with towers like archer and others. I find it extremely boring and can't make myself use such towers. I only feel like a looser if I do.

    Your bots demand one has played many games at that bot to get the EXP. But you forget EXP at a bot means nothing in terms of skill.

    Trust me, you will have many chances to play with and against me in ltd2 =) And I look forward to it, you seem really dedicated and serious and obviously you think about strategies and such. Thats great!
    I don't doubt for one second you would beat me in 3.41. But because of knowledge about the map, not because of understanding of complex and balanced ltd game mechanics.
    In ltd2 we will be on equal footing and who knows, perhaps you rape me then aswell. Will be fun to see=)
    I just think that starting with enough gold to buy a tier6 level 1 is horrible game mechanics. And I don't think that will be the case in ltd2, do you?
    If not the game will be more like x1 then x3 no matter the amount of creeps=)
    Sidenote: I do like the arena thing. That is one good addition.

    We have a saying in Sweden "smaken är some baken, delad". Roughly means we all like different things, and one opinion does not have to be better then another just because they are different.
     
  3. Akitos

    Akitos Member

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    Well from my experience they are. It is a fact that different regions have different levels of skill in EVERY game. Look at LoL for example. The average asian LoL player is certainly better than the average EU/NA LoL player, or you wanna tell me they aren't? LTD is actually the game where NA/EU is far ahead on other regions, because they don't have a well organised competitive scene like we do. And the ability to speak english has A LOT to do with it. LTD isn't a game that one can master alone, not by todays standards. The only way to improve is by learning from others, wether it be by playing with or against those who're better than you. Refusing to cooperate is a bannable offense on ENT; thus people who don't speak english struggle a lot. Anyway, my point is: one person can only get so far, no matter how talented he might be. I've seen that a lot on UcW where I've been playing some for fun. There were some gifted players who were really good in their world, but they didn't stand a chance against ENT players. Like, they knew as much as a man can teach himself, or even get taught within a non competitive environment. They considered themself to be really good, and just like you they weren't lieing; at least not on purpose. Most of them didn't wanna believe me and prefered to stay in their tiny world where they're kings, tho some let me show them that they infact know nothing. Needless to say they were kinda disappointed finding out that after so many thousand games they were actually worse than the bottom of ENT 1,2k+ community^^ I've not seen any of them again, neither on ENT or on UcW. I guess they must've quit the game after finding out.

    I can't tell if this is true, because you say "was". How many years ago are we speaking? :'D If LIHL didn't exist at that point then you might even be right, but you certainly are not today. The level of skill in LTD has exploded over the past fear years and is constantly rising still.

    If you really think that then please, show me where I can find them ;) I'll gladly accept any challenge.

    It is easier than signing up for a LIHL game with !sign (after being vouched ofc) or checking ENT games list for the current game number? I don't think so, but please, enlighten me.

    Dude, no offense, but if you really believe one can know everything about LTD then you're certainly not a good player. There is always something that you can learn, something that you can improve on. Unless you're playing predefined races ofc, there you can "cap out" on knowledge. When you play with -phgmcb tho, which is standard among competitive, there will always be a situation you haven't been in yet. LTD these days is all about adapting and evolving. If you stand still you lose. Yes, we always play the same version, but that doesn't mean the meta doesn't shift. There is so many different ways to play each roll and almost every roll is unique. Not to mention that every game has a completly different pace and you might have to adjust even the most static roll there is. I agree that some towers, such as Archer, have a rather linear and somewhat static playstyle. Tho even those require situational decisions. You'd be surprised how many people I've seen fail Archer, which is certainly the easiest tower to yolo with. Anyway, there is a lot of different viable builds and many of them are quite hard to pull off consistently. Obviously there is a 0815 guide for the more commonly used yolo towers, but if you follow those you won't get far. Even after hundreds of games played on Aqua I still find some small tweaks here and there. No game is like the one before, it always depends on the situation. That's the beauty about Prophet builder and the reason why 3.41e is the most popular map with essentially infinite replay value. Honestly, if a player tells you he knows everything about 3.41e, he lies or doesn't know better. That's a fact and I'm sure any noticable player will confirm that for you. So yeah, there is no "best strategy for one map"; it's all about skill. The skill in LTD is not to know everything, that's not possible, it's about how to apply the knowledge that you have and make it work. It's about being able to understand the current situation and make decisions based on the variables of the game. The most difficult thing to do in LTD is to read and manipulate the calls from your opponents, aswell as to make good, situational, shotcalls while doing so. Especially this is something that is impossible to master. Even the best shotcallers make wrong decisions from time to time. To some degree that also depends a lot on who you play against, since mindgames play a big role in this. You cannot mindgame someone effectively if you don't know how he's thinking. Knowing the habits of others is a massive advantage, while it's also obviously a bad thing if others know; or rather can know; your habits. The best players are essentially unreadable, because they'll constantly adjust and evolve their playstyle. If you consider yourself to be capped out, well, then I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to read you after a while ^^ That's just like in Poker. If you keep doing the same things others will learn how to read and beat you. Doing "the best" thing is not always the best thing to do if you know what I mean.

    It actually does mean a lot, because there is a huge difference in skill on the different bots, and ENT is currently years ahead on everyone else; at least the 1,2k+ bot and especially LIHL. You see, there is a huge difference between playing LTD against good players and bad ones. If you've only played bad ones you can be as good as you want, you'll fail against other good ones because you aren't actually good. You can only get as good as your environment. If you only practice tennis with beginners you can never become a pro, no matter how hard you try! Or do you wanna tell me you play exactly the same no matter who you play against? :'D I for one certainly play different when playing on noob bots. I'd actually lose there if I'd play as I would in pro matches, and vice versa^^

    Well, since I am informed about LTD2 and how LTD has evolved over the past years; while all you do is talking about the past and stating how good you were back then; I know that it will be the case. Take a look here. Also, why is it a bad thing to have more options from the start? It makes the game much more complex and opens up for way more different playstyles. Just because you can build a T6 doesn't mean it's an autocall to do so lol. On the other hand I could argue that it is indeed an autocall to build lower tier towers when you don't have the option to start with w/e you want. So the options are actually more limited and easier to make with less starting gold.
     
  4. von Oberstain

    von Oberstain Member

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    Hi!

    Note: Ithtion and me are friends for many years now. We share many standpoints, as we discussed game and balance alot, when 1.5c was left to public... Not everything, though... So, I don't 'automatically approve' everything he says...

    Server strength:

    Not trying to be offensive, but I honestly can't remember any relevant 1.6b (or earlier) [ENT] Legion player. Correct me if I'm wrong...

    A couple of years after last "people's version", namely LegionTD 1.42 was out ("people's" because back then anyone could host a game at bnet), mentioned bots took over bnet by force - games couldn't be hosted by normal users anymore, just bot owners. I blame Blizzards increasing negligence over bnet1.0. This made the game teamings quite random, and left no without possibility for 'inside balancing' - changing teams and players positions.

    Anyhow, LegionTD was very popular at that time on Garena (spawning over a couple of years) - strong game could be found at any time - speaking about classical X1. It was exactly opposite to bnet (and very like the game beginnings) - people knew each other, formed teams with friends and occassional stranger, knew opponents well and never bad-mouthed them... Germany, Romania, Sweeden, Ukraine, Russia - that's where best players were coming from then. Occassional visitor from USA. Anyhow, I always did found Europe server hardest to play - probably because large number of players, including ex-Soviet countries and european part of Russia - many great players came from those (having servers in their own language, and oportunity to practice strategies). In my opinion/experience, USA servers aren't so good, and it's probably because they're divided into two realms.


    Learning the ropes:

    Very important fact, that many tend to overlook, for learning how the game works were removed from the game. By this, I mean lack of -mm mode, that allowed players to watch any of 7 other players and do what they do. Also, easy-incoming - newbies were told to income, first couple games they would income while learning how game is played.

    When -mm was added (as almost mandatory, I personally disagree), number of players for newbie (speaking the language or not) could observe was cut from 7 to 3. Around that time, incoming was nerfed too. Final stone was addition of Hybrid, race that new players shouldn't learn first. I played probably over 1,000 games with 7 hybrids, 1 random (me) - this is also true for Prophet in MEGA.

    Changes above didn't matter much at first, bnet was a 'happy place' then and, besides, everyone knew how to play already. The effects of changes become apparent later, when a new generation of players (which include most 'X3' ones) started to play. Perhaps then, and just for X3-gamers, organizing into clans become important. For the rest of community, Garena provided more than enough.

    As a part of modding team, I can say that we had plans for a comprehensive help system, AI as a 'sparring partner' - even active player in few strenght variants, AI replacing leaver, free observer mode and so on... Anyhow, none of that came to life.

    I surely hope LTD2 will have these.

    Who is better?

    If you guys start accussing each other of lack of knowledge, there is (and always was) an easy way to make a definite conclusion - just play 'best of x' and post replays.

    MEGA and balancing

    Having *some* part in MEGA development (small, but from the very start, later I called HuanAK a friend and we cooperated a lot, sharing ideas, parts of code and so on), I can with 100% certainty say that balancing, unlike in UE/Pro, wasn't main thing in MEGA, any map version.

    HuanAK accepted basic X3 imbalances as a necessary evil (mainly concept of tier1 having so little use and possibility of building tier6 units at turn 1). Having said that, original MEGA author himself recognized that as an imbalance (well, it's hard not to) but left it unattended for substantial time, and then he retired from modding (we agreed to do that at the same time - both fun and fact).

    More facts:
    - Author though about 3.41 as 'version with the most abuses'
    - Author made Prophet race (I think someone from community came with idea) as less-luck based than Hybrid
    - Idea of 'balancing through randomness' is a very old one, and used when adequate balance is impossible to achieve - original LTD had great balance, randomness wasn't needed

    Some personal reflections:

    Randomness pretty much destroyed some of the races, made them non viable (compared to Hybridm for example). Here, I'm referring to aura-based races (such as Mech and Beast) with inherently weaker units and reliance on powerful auras to make them even. While these were great for co-op players, Hybrid/Prophet also can random aura units, often number of, having stronger units together with aura ones (in numbers, nonetheless!), resulting in gross overpowered, pure luck (Hybrid) or mostly luck (Prophet) builds, compared to anything possible to have with non-random based races (except a few known imbalances).

    'Opposite is also true' - that's the common answer, and it's just a hybrid-lullaby - extreme unlucky rolls, value significantly lower than gold invested, bad placing - this is possible, but very uncommon. Much less than Troll or Captain start with 25% of happening, and undeserved +20-25 gold. Much less than very unlucky tier1 start - most unlucky will still pass level1 easily but Hybrid players regard any start that doesn't allow 3rd workers at level 3 "unlucky". It doesn't matter that other races aren't able to do the same - they were 'unlucky'.

    There are number of ways to overcome this, and I hope some will be utilized in LTD2.

    Having an enforcing parameter to play Prophet (or, as requested from me so many times, Hybrid) is an impolite option - everyone should be able to play what he likes. New players especially.

    "Having more options from the start" - this is likely leading to "having more abusing potential, unknown to other players or unavailable to other races/rolls". We had that in the past. Lisk himself dealt with those rather ruthlessly (nearly-mandatory-incomers, selling-for-70%-to-tier6...). While I do agree game *should* have more starting strategies - I personally invested huge amount of playtesting to make 1 Skeleton Champion (sold for 100g) a viable starting option, which was a success - my opinion is that tier6-starts are bad practice. There is a reason why tiers exist, and why starting gold is/was 100. Best units should normally appear at best during mid-game - or what's the point? It all comes to massing tier6 eventually (thing that I would like to see changed in LTD2)...

    A question:

    Firstly, sorry for this wall of text...

    And the question is, citing from the memory 'LTD2 will be something between original LTD and MEGA. Yet, most posters regards it as exact-MEGA remake (in which case, why do we even need it?). My question is:

    Has something changed in 'none of the above' game policy?


    Sincerely,
    von Oberstain
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2016
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  5. Akitos

    Akitos Member

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    NOTE: I didn't really pick any order for my answers as I just quoted w/e I felt like answering first and then sometimes found other stuff that appeared first in your comment. So yeah, please don't mind the fucked up order^^

    I don't now and I never claimed ENT was superior back then. All I did say was that it certainly is today ;)

    I'll accept any challenge and he knows that ;)

    I agree that many T1s are rather useless (there is exceptions tho, mortars & revenants, who're both super good, come to mind), but there is useless towers in any tier. Regarding T6: just because T6 is the generally the most expensive tower it's not automatically the best. Infact a majority of T6 towers is garbage. Compared to T1 there is only a few more viable T6 towers than T1; obviously this depends on the meta tho. In places where yolo meta doesn't exist there is completly different top tier towers. Overall the yolo meta shifted the power away from the high cost towers in favor of the cheaper ones (t1-4), so if you play 3.41(e) on a bot that doesn't use yolo lower tier towers will generally speaking be worse. About the massing T6 thingy: not sure when you've played, but that's not a thing; no matter what meta you play. Rarely any game (probably less than 5%) goes to 20+ and 20+ is the only time where you might find yourself in a position where you're massing T6. During early/mid game it's much more likely you'll be building other stuff. Overall the tiers don't really tell you much in terms of powerlevel in todays LTD, it's more about them having different pricing. The times where the towers got better the higher the tier are long gone. Wether that's a good thing or not is discussable, but in the current meta that's what it looks like. Or simple put: just because you CAN start with T6 it's not always a good thing to do. Infact there is only 2 towers that are good starting towers on T6, LoD and Ygg, maybe Spawn aswell (if you have the roll to back it up, Flying Machine for example makes it a viable start), but that's really it, all other T6s are garbage to start with. That means that T6 actually has the same amount of good starting options that T1 has (Wolves & Mortar, possibly Aco aswell). So here is my question: why do you consider starting with T6 a bad practice? Speaking about todays LTD btw! I can see why it would certainly be a bad practice if the game was still as it was in 1.6b, because from what I know T6 was generally very powerful there; but that's not the case anymore. Power is pretty equally shifted among all tiers right now.


    That's why we have a very detailed rule setting and 3.41e was created (mostly to adress the clogging issue, which is still present in any other map that isn't X1).

    I agree, tho what makes Prophet so good isn't only the fact that randomless "balances" things out. It's more about Prophet being a way to play the game where every game is unique and you constantly have to adjust your gameplay. With predefined races the game becomes static, skillfree and boring really quickly; as with predfined races there will be optimal strategies with variations based on situations (but those variations are also very limited) and with a huge playerbase, that we hopefully will have, those strategies would be figured out insanely fast. Simply put: Prophet adds a lot of replay value to the game and it's one of the reasons to why the game keeps many people interested. You essentially cannot learn everything when you have a random builder. I don't like hybrid tho, because I don't like not being able to plan ahead.

    I agree and that's what classic mode (unranked) is for ;)

    That's not entirely true and I'm sorry if you got it wrong. All I said was that LTD2 will be oriented on what LTD looks like today to have a place to start. That doesn't mean LTD2 won't go in another direction in the future and will be "a mega clone". It's just gonna start thereish to have a solid base to work with. The decision for that was based on the fact that it's the most popular version with the only competitive scene I guess.

    Oh well, here we go. I feel like being on stream and getting asked "what's the best tower"?... So I guess I'll answer it in a similar way to what I used to tell my viewers: there is no "best tower", as that always depends on the situation. The only thing we can say for sure are things like: "tower X in combination with tower Y in combination with tower W is best at holding level Z" or "tower X has the fastest lumber ramp early game" "tower X has the most consistent early game, and thus might be the best early game tower, tho in another situation tower Y might be better early game"... You see, there really is nothing like a "best tower", so something like "the best towers should normally appear at best during midgame" is simply not possible (or rather: it's always the case, because it doesn't make sense to build a good early game tower during midgame, so obviously the "best tower" during midgame will be a midgame tower). At least not in the way you put it. You see, the best units for the midgame do indeed show up in the midgame, because hey, they're best at the midgame, why build them earlier or later? Same goes for good early game towers, why would I build them in the midgame? The game has evolved into a direction where it is necessary to optimize your build for a certain purpose. The times of having a build that is good at all levels are LONG LONG GONE, you're forced to optimize or you won't stand a chance!! The reason for that being the insane amounts of lumber that players are able to aquire these days and the fact they know when to send and what to send; thus making it impossible for a non optimized build to hold a target send. With that being said it should be obvious that T6 or in general higher priced towers are not always the answer. That might've been the case many years ago, but it certainly isn't today. Mortar for example is certainly the best anti 17 tower, and that's a T1! Aco/Rev is one of the best towers against 15, also a T1. Towers that counter specific levels are found in any tier and if the situation asks for it those towers will then be the "best". But yeah, as I said, there is absolutly no connection between the tier of a tower and its strength. If a "best tower" for midgame shows up at midgame, it obviously is not a "best tower" in the early game. But what if the early game was game deciding, wouldn't then an early game focused tower be the "best" instead? You see, that's a very very deep topic and there is not a simple answer to it. I could essentially give you infinite examples of when which tower is "the best" ;)
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2016
  6. von Oberstain

    von Oberstain Member

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    It's OK, what's important is being polite and not bringing thinks out of context - no particular order is needed :)

    I don't like much to have quotes in my post, so I'll skip that - hope that's alright...

    ENT superiority and majority of my post...
    ...was referring to 1.6b. Perhaps it's my fault that I haven't made it more clear. So, I don't still know any relevant [ENT] 1.6b players.

    I, myself, played perhaps 200-300 games of MEGA, so I'm far from being an expert on that topic. But if LTD2 won't be a carbon copy of MEGA (or X10, which seem nearly as popular nowadays ;)), then different rules will likely apply to it.

    Metagame...

    ...changes over time, I agree. 1.6b wasn't an exception, and I personally spent some 4 years to finely adjust balance and accomodate changes which metagame bring. Lisk left reasonably balanced game - I say 'reasonably' because Elves were just introduced, and Hybrid was never balanced properly - surely, things like that would be ironed out later, but game had Elves untouched and Marine and Hybrid practically untouched.

    I am not familiar with the metagame changes of MEGA.

    Balance...
    ...was never main issue in it (or X3), one cannot simply multiply everything by any number and have still same amount of balance. If new game is to be built, then simple instance as 'level x is a problem for a race without medium armour, due to magic damage and focus fire potential', then it is (X)3 times bigger problem if multiplying took place. It is very simple example, but roots go much deeper, impacting nearly every individual unit.

    Way back when, I put the MEGA numbers in my 'number crunching and unpleasant AI' - same which I used for finding balancing issues in 1.6b and my mod (it proved useful, but please don't think that meticulous and extensive, real life testing wasn't used - oh, how much did I test)... Anyway, results were terrible - most units were under or overperforming - which is no wonder, since they just weren't meant to be used in X3 conditions.

    I hope balance will be better in LTD2.

    MEGA popularity and X1...
    ...there is, and was, a strong X1 community - and Garena days can prove it. MEGA had the lead there, but nearly not as one would conclude from same period on bnet. It could be said that X1 "lost the bot wars". Updated X1 could, in my opinion, be rather popular today.

    I hope that announced modding abilities will allow X1 remake, and addition of new races (though there are forseeable problems).

    Hybrind/Prophet played for fun, not because they are superior...
    ...DENIAL! :) And nothing but! Sure, genuinely different experience... On what do I base this (to most - 'outrageus') claim?

    A practal testing!
    - Example 1: tesing the game on Garena with friends (and also beta-testers), with TWO new races - most that were ever introduced at once. What happens? 6 of them choses Hybrid! 'Guys, we are *testing* here, c'mon'. Next game, same players, only 4 hybrids, with explanation 'we don't want to suck' (cited).

    - Example 2: purposly, without telling everyone, I introduced race so powerful that it actually beats Hybrid, say 55:45. I left it like that couple of weeks. When I logged in, 5 of testers are playing *that* race, with only 2 Hybrids.

    Seeking shortcuts and choosing best race is deeply within human nature - some with resist, but mostly not. And, as proven, if something even *more* overpowered is introduced, there is a switch to that.

    Endless replayability without paying Hybrid/Prophet price...
    ...is possible, and was introduced in late UE/Pro. It was uncommonly simple and actually improving overall balance (compared to both race or H/P or combination of).

    To cut it short, it was a -db option, meaning 'dual builder' - two randomly chosen builders are given to each player. This doubles the number of units, and allowing huge number of starting, midgame and endgam combinations alike. It also allowed bit easier passing of most difficult levels. *Some* combinations were better than others, *some* were worse than average, but out of some (calculating quickly) say 100+ combinations, it was fully acceptable.

    For highly promising, but unfinished project 'actually-balanced-X3-game' (most of MEGA players I met ingame said game was 'refreshing and acceptable' - I wasn't developer, but did a fair amount of helping), we also put -tb alternative, guess what - 3 builders (out of 14 balanced races, we were productive :)) - even more combination, and most X3-inherent balance problems reduced much.

    That was truly different experience each game - without the part where Hybrids whine because they didn't get OP towers they were expecting to...

    Midgame appearance of tier6...
    ...will be answered (or, rather, initial statement redefined) quickly, because I have to go. Place. Do stuff. Now.

    Anyhow, I was referring more to X1-like mechanic (or something inbetween) than to MEGA (which - MEGA - I don't know well, but I know what I don't like). They, tier6, in X1 are something that the player should work hard to get on lower level (I mentioned sell-nerf), because they are clearly most powerful units in the game.

    I understand that MEGA mechanics are different. Example - why some tier6 are not good start? Because of 36, because of attack cooldown, because of damage wasted on overkill, because of AoE (yes/no). In short, lack of balance. In short, some units, probably ones who possess most of the bracket items in best combination, are clearly superior to others. Again, balance.

    In X1, it's practially impossible to get tier6 until midgame, not without terrible sacrifice (like, human :)).

    And I still hope that LTD2 will look more like LTD1 than MEGA. Or, at least, as good in terms of balance as LTD...

    Sincerely,
    von Oberstain
     
  7. Akitos

    Akitos Member

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    I'm not even sure what we're discussing here anymore. What's the point?
     
  8. von Oberstain

    von Oberstain Member

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    Beats me, too :)

    But it seems constructive...

    By browsing I caught up Happy, and started reading this thread (I also never heard of the cross-build) - on that matter, I have strong opinion that, if the place is available for building, why banning it through mode? Good good teamwork should be rewarded... Also builds at uncommon places, unless they are proven as overpowered, in which case they could be nerfed as the middle-build. So, at least *this* paragraph is about thread title :).

    But the real reason why I wrote wall of text is, despite the cold demeanour, quite emotional - I saw Happy posting again after long time, (another friend, Nick, is also here, but he seem to be retired from posting, much alike myself), then heard from some old friends...

    All of that reminded me of good-old times, endless stream of games and initial spirit of the game, the community which was here when I started to - and how happy we were. Having this wonderful map, having nice people to play it with or against... Playing thousands of games, too... [talking about X1]

    I also agree with Happy on "many of original LTD players got bored"... from the years of no updates... "and left the game"... while it didn't happened during the Garena activity. It's hard to make even an educated guess, but - say, up to 30% of total LTD players (all versions, X3 variants included, but excluding X10-nonsense) are actually retired 1.6b players, who would return to a 'new 1.6b' instantly, but wouldn't be nearly so eager to play 'new MEGA' - they haven't played old one, too.

    Anyhow, 30% is a number that shouldn't be ignored.

    That 30% are positively discouraged by all that 'MEGA being so great' talk, I was actually surprised when some of them showed interest in LTD2. The two 'camps' don't exactly mix well - I don't personally know any player who did 1.6b->MEGA switch (out of people I know personally, and there were plenty of them at one time; some X3 players also refused to play MEGA and also retired). What I'm trying to say is that, if the middle-ground can't be found, open and easy modding that allows players to chose what they like would be beneficial.

    Ideally, same game could have two official modes, MEGA-like or 1.6b-like (especially since balanced races, summons, waves and so on, are already existing for 1.6b) - it could be done in worldedit easily, I did it, and not because I'm some kind of programmer mastermind, rather because it was just setting a variables to different values depending on starting parameters (mode).

    But you're right, this discussion is kinda erratic and probably doesn't belong here... But might contain... something interesting... for someone? Hmmmm...

    Sincerely,
    von Oberstain
     
  9. Akitos

    Akitos Member

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    Well, the problem with both cross and mid build (in it's current state) is that it actually requires less teamwork than 2x solo builds do^^ Not to mention that one player essentially has to do nothing at all for a huge part of the game. In cross, and even mid, there is only one who builds initially. For cross many builds don't even require the incomer to build delay, so he's literally sitting on 0 value for 10+ levels... Needless to say that it's a very good way to carry noobs and nothing that should exist within mastermind que.

    Unlikely to happen because it would be too much work to keep both updated and balanced. It's best if they focus on one instead. Everyone will be free to do w/e he wants with their editor tho and play his own versions in the Arcade mode.
     
  10. von Oberstain

    von Oberstain Member

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    1) Incoming is generally X3 problem, not X1. Having possibility to spill out 6 workers on turn 1 leads to huge income later, something that creep/level reward balance is not covering correctly - at least results are not so great (over- or underpowered play with/without incomer). HuanAK implemented that god-awful incoming system - heh, don't worry, I told him that with exact words back then - anyhow, X1 worker system (last time I heard, LTD2 was to have that, but it may've changed) needs certain restraints to be put on anything allowing income to grow in such a proportions.

    Both -gg and -mm mechanics I don't like - and by *liking* I don't mean just personal preference, but unwanted changes in gameplay. -mm (virtually everyone will spit on me for saying this), allows people to get away with all kind of crap that would be, and should be countered, starting from level 1 (risky builds, dual laning, etc). -gg is a story for itself, along with 'lets multiply by 3' the FIRST human-modder (still that expression) intervention - 'hey, guys, let's make game generally easier - by removing what was basic game concept that leaks came at a price' - it also makes balancing really hard. It also influences build you mentioned, they would look completely different without -gg.

    While experienced players usually have some idea what opponents are doing, a nice and fully visible map allowed actual active countering opposing team. -mm changed that, but most of you guys probably don't remember how it was like to play *without* it - guess everyone should play some 100 non -mm games (believe it's not to much for devoted player) and then decide if they (non -mm games) are complete nonsense or not. Most people is defending fiercely something that they always had, just because they always had it (or tried once to play without).

    2) Unlikely - yes. Harder - not to much. Dealing with bugs, adding/changing code and so on are exactly the same (and one strain is already balanced, so zero effort goes there). Speaking from experience here, I maintained map with several strains for 4 years. But I don't put much hope that it would happen...

    Sincerely,
    von Oberstain
     
  11. Akitos

    Akitos Member

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    Wrong topic, check here.

    Overall we're kinda off topic here and should stop this. This thread was about cross and mid build and it's potential future in LTD2. Now it kinda evolved into a 'what went "wrong" in the evolution of LTD' and my statement to this is clear: if I wouldn't know how the game is being played today I'd get a feeling the game evolved into a piece of garbage when reading through your and your friends comments. Luckily I know one thing: the game is more popular today than it ever has been with X1 and based on that popularity we're getting a standalone game. With that being said it can't be all bad no? You're saying this: "Most people is defending fiercely something that they always had, just because they always had it (or tried once to play without)." From my knowledge you, or at least your dear friend Ithion, have never played 3.41e with the current meta, which really is essentially a completly different game. LTD has evolved soooo much over the past few years; even without any map updates!! So what about you give it a try aswell? ;) There has been so many things going on that it's impossible to grasp without actually seeing it (something that Ithion sadly wouldn't understand), because the most influential changes were meta changes and the meta is completly different than what you guys are used to. I desperatly tried to get Ithion to try it out before saying it's all shit (via skype), but he just wouldn't get it. He kept on talking shit about how bad oranges taste, while he has never tried one, yet he wanted to tell me that apples taste better (in case someone didn't get it: apples = old LTD / oranges = new LTD)... Hopefully you're not as short minded as him and give it a try instead of dooming it from the start because you personally don't like -gg/mm. My general point is: even tho the game is still called LTD, I personally think it might aswell have a different name today; mostly because the term "tower defense" is anything but matching what LTD looks like these days. Once we see them as two different games we can hopefully all acknowledge that both games have good and bad sides, and that neither game is better! You can't say apples are better than oranges either, can you? They're simply different, that's all. We can use all of our time to discuss everything that has changed, and wether or not those changes were "good" or "bad"; but what's the point? Overall the game is good today and it was good back then, and LTD2 will be amazing. So can we please stop discussing which version is the "best" or made the most "mistakes"...? I'm tired of it.
     
  12. von Oberstain

    von Oberstain Member

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    You're right, this is a wrong thread, and besides, I'm getting tired of this... I don't particularly like to be called 'shortminded', or being repeatedly patronized by childish metaphores, and yes - I did played 3.41e (in the past few years), and well - didn't see anything particularly interesting comparing to other versions. Major flaws of the game were present as ever, and I can't find a reason for continuing this discussion, at least not here.

    My posts were at least touching mechanics and other important issues - that will certainly come up sooner or later. I will try to help LTD2 in the ways that I can - there should be something, I *did* spent years on active developing/fixing LTD-based games, never witholding knowledge or information whether I liked what they produce at the end or not.

    Sincerely,
    von Oberstain
     
  13. Akitos

    Akitos Member

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    I never called you shortminded and I'm deeply sorry if you got me wrong there. I was calling your friend shortminded.
     
  14. r1pp3r

    r1pp3r Member

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    Crossing is one of the best ways to play the game at its full potential. Its a strategy , not for noobs, and for the people who have no idea what it means to cross. It was explained to you very well by i_kill_satan. Althought at 31 if u cross right u are the strongest in the game. @awesomeful u have not the smallest idea of crossing as a strategy. Please refrain from commenting on crossing. Me and my friend are one of the best crossers in Legion TD 1 in every server on every map. If u want i can teach u how much knowledge u lack.
     
  15. awesomeful

    awesomeful Member

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    Dude that post was from almost 2 years ago... Like merc isn't even in the game anymore...
    What exactly do you disagree with that I said? How it is an easy strategy?
     
  16. LForward

    LForward Community Manager Staff Member

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    Obviously it is an easy strategy to win the game because Cross abuses a lot of the game mechanics that were not meant to be in the game.
     
  17. Adry

    Adry Member

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    Well we can end this discussion about crossing because Legion TD 2 doesn't allow you to cross thanks to the new tree-like map (I'm very happy with it tbh).
    Probably the interesting discussion is if mid and solo will be easy to balance not making one of them better than the other.
    A similar strategy for crossing will be one player full building mid and the other just slowing the other lane, having a hard leak. Then when the midder mobs are nearly to be eliminated the leaker mobs will arrive. It's still a mid strategy rather than a cross one.