Update #34: New Map Layout

Discussion in 'Announcements' started by Jules, Oct 1, 2016.

  1. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

    Messages:
    280
    Likes Received:
    178
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Happy October, everyone!

    Happy birthday to Lisk, who turned 26 yesterday! We went bowling to celebrate, but don't ask how many gutter balls he rolled. :p

    If you want to give Lisk the best possible birthday present, sign up for the closed beta if you haven't already! Closed beta launches in a few months.

    New map, same gameplay!
    old-vs-new.png
    We're excited to finally show you the new Legion TD 2 map. We know change can be scary, but rest assured that this is still the same Legion you know and love.

    When we set out to make Legion TD 2, we vowed not to change what makes Legion fun: the core gameplay. But we also promised ourselves not to be afraid to innovate. It's easy to copy something one-for-one, but a good designer isn't afraid to critique and improve his own game. We're confident we can make awesome changes, while maintaining the same gameplay and feel of Legion TD.

    Major changes and rationale:

    All lanes face the same direction
    • Improved clarity. Units now flow in the same direction for all players. Fighters move up, creatures and mercenaries move down. This is a lot clearer and more intuitive, especially for new players.
    • Improved balance/consistency. In games like League of Legends and Dota 2, the side you're on impacts your ability to win. We don't want that for Legion TD 2. You should be able to deploy fighters how you want, without having to worry about which direction you're facing.
    Mid lanes divided from solo lanes
    • Improved clarity. It's now clear what constitutes the area for deploying together. Creatures will be visibly buffed when they reach the mid lane. There's no confusion about whether a creature walked in or out of mid.
    • Removed funkiness. Previously, the mid lane intersected perpendicularly with the solo lanes, which led to fighters being improperly aggro'd or to fighters running past enemy creatures, causing you to leak when you shouldn't.
    • We want mid laning to be a viable strategy, but it should only be optimal if you have good coordination with your ally and synergistic fighters. Most of the time, it will not be optimal.
    • "Cross" is a strategy in Legion TD in which one player fights each wave individually. It's so overpowered that it's usually banned from competitive play. Legion TD 2 will not support traditional cross because we don't believe it's a healthy, fun strategy in the long run.
    Arena removed
    • Arena was a minigame after levels 10 and 20 in which all the fighters on each team battled in a chaotic clash royale. Sometimes your ranged dps ended up on the front lines while your melee tanks danced in the back - it was pretty random! Whichever team won was awarded a bit of extra gold.
    • Arena actually wasn't a feature in classic Legion TD but was added with the introduction of Legion TD Mega. We think Arena is cool and has a place in custom games, but ultimately, it feels kind of gimmicky and doesn't fit with Legion TD 2.
    Town replaced by UI
    • In the original Legion TD, the lane was where you deployed fighters, and the town was where you hired mercenaries, trained workers, and purchased upgrades. The new UI wraps up all of this into one. Because the town no longer serves a gameplay purpose, it's probably worth removing.
    • We still think workers look cool, so we're exploring ways to have automatic workers without them taking up half your screen.


    Recent Highlights

    Here’s what Lisk and I were up to in September:

    • Completed 3D models and animations for the Forsaken legion
    • Completed concept art and began work on 3D models and animations for the Mech legion
    • Working on sound effects for the Grove legion
    • Redesigned the map layout and began in-game implementation
    • Continued designing and implementing the new HUD
    • Designing functional prototype of Lobby UI & Menu Screens
    • Starting backend code for profiles and matchmaking
    • Converting gameplay systems from singleplayer to server-client multiplayer (continued) (this month we completed pathing routes, towers turning into fighters, and mercenary warps)
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2016
    vzk likes this.
  2. Akitos

    Akitos Member

    Messages:
    158
    Likes Received:
    42
    Trophy Points:
    28
    First!

    I love it! Really happy you made the choice not to include cross in LTD2. The fact that you now always face up is also a nice thing, because I really hated to play downwards. I'm also glad you decided to get rid of "rngena". I'm right there with you that it was not a core feature of the game and had mostly a negative impact. If I'm not mistaken I recommended it being removed years ago. Oh and: belated happy birthday to Lisk!!! :)
     
  3. avesnc

    avesnc Member

    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    arena can be fight of 2 random players after every spawn ended.
    win will get 10x[current spawn lvl ended] gold
    loss 5x

    there will fight armies from last spawn, without any new builds or any upgrades.
    fight will must ended in time before next spawn started.
    if not both player got 5x gold.

    It will not affect gameplay seriously (5 and 10 gold on 2spawn start).
    But will interested for players.
    Also player will see one of another team army.

    > Town replaced by UI
    will you take custom player addons for game? I do not follow every post or announce on forum.
    i'm sorry =)
    Town and another buildings will be more customizable.
     
  4. Akitos

    Akitos Member

    Messages:
    158
    Likes Received:
    42
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Yeah sure, let's add even more rng to the game.
    How does free scout on a random person not affect gameplay? That's like a HUGE ASS impact actually.

    Btw, is it supposed to be like that on the front page?


    [​IMG]

    Seems kinda weird to see the same layout twice there.
     
  5. avesnc

    avesnc Member

    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Hey, it's only 10/5 gold after first spawn(wave)!

    Different costs of units has same effect.
    When you cannot buy last unit if has 45 gold and unit cost is 50. Otherwise your enemy spend full gold!

    Also there can be game rating based on arena.

    After 29 waves will be 29 arenas with random players. It will be interesting!
    It can be optional too...
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2016
  6. Guennter

    Guennter Member

    Messages:
    255
    Likes Received:
    51
    Trophy Points:
    28
    I totaly like the fact, that finaly creeps will always come from same direction (in old wc3, when towers looked into right/wrong direction depending on you beeing top or bot it had impact to the holdpotential).

    "Deleting" (it never was in the original map ^^) the arena seems totaly fine aswell, since it will delete this random gold-gain ... yet i think that it may still be good, if the fog is opened after 10, so you are able to see enemy rolls for once.

    Well, since there is no need for the town/barracks/and so on, you dont have to see them ingame, but seeing your workers walk around may be nice to see, and also (if there is a workersystem like in v1.6 and not wispsystem like in 3.41) its easier to see when EXACTLY you gonna get your wood, and its easier to be sure that you can send before income/unitspawn.
    Additionaly (and maybe thats even the most important part) in the old version it was possible to send your workers back to town before they did gather all possible wood, and with that you were able to get the last 3 or 4 wood and send, instead of getting 8 or 9 wood but having to wait for it and not beeing able to send in time. ... This would also add some skilllevel for "pros" without making the game any harder for new players.
     
  7. Akitos

    Akitos Member

    Messages:
    158
    Likes Received:
    42
    Trophy Points:
    28
    1) that gold can make a big difference and decide the outcome of the game
    2) the random scout is what has the biggest impact

    This kinda belongs into suggestions btw, not here.
     
  8. madxoma

    madxoma Member

    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    3
    1) Happy Birthday Lisk
    2) Why? Why did you come up with a beautiful history of the "deranged sickness" and with "mythium" if it just take away?
    3) You yourself wrote that: Your support will enable Legion TD 2 to stay in the hands of passionate gamers—the Legion TD team and the community—rather than outside investors. Then write that: talked with some investors and most of them wanted me to change Legion TD into a mobile game. You simplify everything and make it easier Legion TD 2 to mobile game. Legion TD community does not feel that same game. If you continue to change Legion TD to unrecognizable then you will be without fans from the CIS countries.
     
  9. Akitos

    Akitos Member

    Messages:
    158
    Likes Received:
    42
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Where do you have this information from? :O LTD becoming a mobile game would be a disaster D:
     
    Lisk likes this.
  10. madxoma

    madxoma Member

    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Kikstarter and Reddit

    Bring everything as it was on Kikstarter.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2016
  11. LForward

    LForward Community Manager Staff Member

    Messages:
    198
    Likes Received:
    69
    Trophy Points:
    28
    I honestly think that there is no need to completely remove the arena.
    If we're aiming for a Lvl 21 Game Layout, then there wouldn't be a second arena anyway so it's just the first one that we're talking about.
    In my opinion the arena was always pretty entertaining to watch. Investing some Lumber to win it was also valid, it's actually not super hard to make it less rng-based. Fighters should just be teleported to the "Arena Area" the way they were built. This way Fighters, that were built in the front will be teleported in front, Fighters, that were built in the back of your arena will be ported in the back. Now Arena just needs some space and there is a fair fight. If you think the impact is too strong, then we should probably just reduce the Reward given for Arena win to let's say 50 Gold or let there be a different reward.

    Regarding the map I can just say that we will see how it turns out when we play it. I've seen a lot of positive and negative feedback about it so we will need to have a look to really determine how good/bad this layout is compared to the old map. Before that it is hard to tell, it doesn't look super innovative of course, but maybe it helps to get a better overview. That's what the Beta will be for ;)

    Just my 2 cents.
     
    Jamo, GvR Mr Mister and Lisk like this.
  12. Diablo

    Diablo Member

    Messages:
    39
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    8
    The map layout change looks good, especially that towers look at the same direction for every player now.

    I'm still a bit sceptical about the UI and hope it will have a smooth and coherent feeling to use all the different aspects of it (building towers, sending units, using the town features). I don't really see a problem with having buildings to use though and think it would feel better.

    The removal of the arena also worries me a bit. While it was a bit random at times it still added fun and also strategy (pushing after level 10 or build more for arena, add auras for arena, send to possibly win the arena and increase your income or save for a "hurting" send etc.). On top of that it was a great feature to get sight of the towers and stats of the other team, which I hope still will be the case in LTD 2 - but it will probably feel somewhat arbitrary then when e.g. the fog just vanishes for some seconds without any reason for it.
     
    Lisk likes this.
  13. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

    Messages:
    280
    Likes Received:
    178
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Just to clarify, we aren't changing anything other than the map layout. The picture above is a mockup - it's not what it looks like in game. We're still an independent 2-man team without investors, and Legion TD 2 is still a PC game with mythium and the Nova lore. :D

    Where did you hear that it's a mobile game? That's not true and never was.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2016
    NICOLAI89 likes this.
  14. NICOLAI89

    NICOLAI89 Member

    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    3
    I did not beleive that, but I'm happy you've clarified this, Jules
     
  15. Adry

    Adry Member

    Messages:
    70
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    8
    While changes are always scary, I think this layout will be fine. Creepers moving downside to king.
    Crossing was a fun strategy, a little overpowered, but we still have midbuilding.

    About the battle, it was very funny imo, but i undersand it has nonsense with the randomness in competitive play.

    I have hope in this new layout!
     
  16. GvR Mr Mister

    GvR Mr Mister Member

    Messages:
    57
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    8
    Am i the only one who likes the rnd factor in ltd? :eek: I dont think i would have played 5k+ matches if there was no rnd^^ About the arena thing, im with Dias opinion that it was a poart of your strategy to send/build for arena, see your enemies units/pushes etc. So if you remove it, do you still reveal enemies units after 10?
     
  17. Sega

    Sega Member

    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Love the new map layout, great job guys :D
     
  18. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

    Messages:
    280
    Likes Received:
    178
    Trophy Points:
    43
    We agree with you that some randomness is fun and promotes replayability. Prophet is a great example! Some combinations of 6 randomized fighters will be stronger or easier to use than others, but it's fun to test new strategies and challenging to optimize (that's part of the skill of Legion). Arena's randomness, on the other hand, is chaotic and doesn't test the same skills. Ultimately, I think arena is cool but just doesn't mesh with the gameplay that we're going for with Legion TD 2.

    Regarding revealing enemies, we're still evaluating and would love to hear your thoughts.
     
  19. Themryon

    Themryon Member

    Messages:
    29
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    3
    I like to get some mid-game benchmarks (the values of the enemies)

    Do a "Secret Reveal" after lvl 10, like this:
    -reveal values of "value","lumber" and "gold and also the map.
    OR
    - just reveal all values, lumber and gold (not the warriors)
    OR
    - each one can chooses an enemy whose values are revealed for the team, so you need to team communicate to reveal which ones. If you have a good teamcommunication, you reveal everyone
     
  20. Guennter

    Guennter Member

    Messages:
    255
    Likes Received:
    51
    Trophy Points:
    28
    As i already wrote like 1 year ago, i LOVE the little random things ... like units dealing 7-11 dmg rather then 9 flat.
    But gamechanging stuff like a total random 100gold boost in arena or a 100% op kingskill compared to two, well, "less effective", or some towers beeing op and the rolls already decide 50%+ games at lvl 1 are just annoying and do lower the capability of the game to get competitive.
    Thats also why (e.g.) newer games like LoL did even take out the randomness of crits (aka, if u have 33% critchance, then with every non-crit it gets a bit higher, so it happens less often you aint critting 10hits while you should crit around every third.)