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[1.38c] Game's macro balance is very frustrating

Discussion in 'Balance Discussion' started by Lagartootemido, Aug 13, 2017.

  1. Lagartootemido

    Lagartootemido Member

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    It is absolutely unsafe to try more than 7 workers by wave 10 and 15 workers before wave 13 now. You have to rely on enemy leaks to even have a shot at 15-25 workers by wave 15.

    Such situation is leading to games ending past w14 because players do not have the eco to actually even hold the waves later on.

    Games are ending more because of starvation than because players actually saving and sending inteligently or getting an edge by being good enough to know how to push earlier and more agressively.

    That is plain bad design. Change that asap please.

    Just to give some numbers: before 1.38 we had 1210 gold from creatures before w10. Now we have 1078. That is brutal because the waves are not actually any easier past a point. That coupled with the waves changes are really making the game feel very slow.

    I feel shackled all the time while playing after the eco changes.
     
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  2. Rave

    Rave Moderator

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    I agree with most of this.. except that you still can hold the lategame waves easily without sends but even your mentioned 15 workers before wave 13 is insane.. on wave 12 I almost never have more than 12 workers

    I still believe that there needs to be more gold in the early game, you can barely push any workers.. imo it doesn't feel good to be forced to value up every round..
     
  3. von Oberstain

    von Oberstain Member

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    What Rave said - perfectly (almost) safe to build worker on w1, then value value, worker3 is risky on w4 and ok on w5. I'm not for the overpowering economy over everything else (again), but some anti-saving mechanism should be reconsidered.

    Almost all LDT1 bots had -ns as forced option.

    Here, savers are not even hurt as much as they should be, because prolonged save is hard to beat with (now reduced) eco + value, leading to just value, leading to quasi-saving where defenders can't improve eco on the expense of savers.

    This will also (hopefully) remove the pub-mandatory saving for w2, w3 or w4 - thing which *really* needs to be optional, but it isn't in pubs (I'll be reported for refusing it - well, doubt they will go that far, but still - *some* people eventually *will*, all because 'universal consensus' that saving needs to go for predefined waves, without even slightly modifying that 'strategy', depending on what happens in game.

    Kids today have no respect for their elders, and snow cover was twice higher on most planets compared to this pitiful one, when I was young!

    Back to the topic, I kinda... skipped... last few patches, but have noticed the reduced number of workers - when I was young, even towers went to mine mythium - it's not that we need a fixed number until level this-and-that (though 6/0 or 6/1 was kinda universal for LTD1, as a guideline if nothing else), but right choice of units for levels *should* allow moreof, and now the cost of the worker (or lack of one due to saving or leaking) isn't really that much - most games are (ruined and) solved by saving.

    Wasn't like that in 1.34 or whatever I played alot, you could 'starve' opponents with constant sending and not allowing them to recover - all providing that you had good income. It was a good thing. Mindless saving for 4-5 levels isn't, but it guarantees a win, unlike hard to pull worker advantages and superior income.

    Lagar and I aren't speaking about the same kind of 'pressure', but both are lacking.
     
  4. Cornep

    Cornep Member

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    I agree with this, we have spoken in detail about this in discord, but how i feel, it feels currently as one would have to swim with their hands tied behind their back and a weight chained to their legs.

    Early game pushing is so damn risky, but if you don't do it, you are dead.

    You need workers, but say you push a 4th worker on wave 5, after income you have like 50g to build, if you get a DT or dino, you will leak, and you will leak hard. if you don't push you are doomed in late game. fun times.
     
  5. Lagartootemido

    Lagartootemido Member

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    Actually, starvation may not be the correct word. It is more like "feedation": the first team to leak loses most of the time because that in turn strengthens the enemy a lot while you get very poor and can't come back by income means. It is making playing safe too rewarding.
     
  6. Cornep

    Cornep Member

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    Leaking should be punishing.

    HOWEVER, the problem right now is, early levels a worker is more than entire rounds worth of gold, making it super risky to push, you can easily leak 80% of the next wave with a regular send, and give the enemy team 5-10 times the gold you gained from the worker.

    Early game is just too rigid, either you push and risk giving enemy team 100g, or you overbuild and die late. Choose your poison.
     
  7. Helldark

    Helldark Member

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    Tottally agree.

    You can leak 3-4 waves and after go back in gold, but your enemy must have much gold for the before leak, so you can only build units but loss the benefit of the gold from income. Dont exist any way to have a good balance of value and income.

    The problem reside in early game, this are very risky to train workers, because if you dont have a excesive value of late wave, you gonna to lose very frustrating way.

    How Horner comments, choose your poison.
     
  8. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    Thanks for the feedback.
    This is intended. I think worker economy is in a pretty healthy spot right now. About 10-15 workers by 15 is what we should be seeing most games. Each worker should feel impactful and not something you get 2-3 of in one round, unless you just survived against a huge save.
    This was also intended. I frequently got feedback, especially from the experienced alpha testers, that late game waves were too weak. I agreed. If you properly pushed workers early, waves were ridiculously easy late game. If you didn't push workers properly, you still cleared late game waves against no sends.
    To me, when a game is "slow," it usually means (1) there is too much waiting around, or (2) my decisions aren't impacting the game. Can you clarify what feels slow to you?
    This is the strategy of Legion TD in a nutshell. You have to take risks to play optimally and win the game.

    Part of my job as a designer is to interpret feedback. For example, someone might say "The game feels frustrating early game and I feel like I'm in shackles. There should be more workers."

    The first part of that statement "The game feels frustrating early game and I feel like I'm in shackles" tells me a lot. It describes what you're feeling, which is always valid.

    The second part of that statement "There should be more workers" is a prescription / a proposed solution. Sometimes it's the right solution. Sometimes it's not.

    In my opinion, more workers is not the right solution, but the part about feeling frustrated/shackled early game is a valid criticism, and I'm working on fixing it.

    In the next balance patch, I'm aiming to increase early game flexibility and opening variety. I may increase early game bounty and/or decrease the cost of certain fighters. I'm making sure to evaluate things carefully. The most recent patch came out only a few days ago, and it takes time for anyone to fully understand the effects.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
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  9. von Oberstain

    von Oberstain Member

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    I don't quite agree. With taking risk stuff being essential - furthermore, currently it isn't at all, but saving is.

    Taking Mech as an example - well, there are Peewees with distinct disadvantage on first two levels and mixed game on 3-4 (which is attack and turns into an actual small disadvantage, because of low dps/hp ratio). They are good 5, somewhat 6 and good 7.

    Infantry - good/average wave1 + they can't be placed without a tanking unit, no matter how +10hp they get with patching (they'll never tank, peewees are there for it) - a definitive offensive unit. Works badly on 2-4 (on paper - in reality, they're useful because of high dps/hp ratio, if protected), then excel at 5-8.

    APS is just bad starting unit, needs to sacrifice worker at wave1 (or spend more value each level).

    Those were w1-worker starting units.

    We have 2 more non-worker starts, and I don't like them. Personal stuff, but still.

    So - ideal worker build times would be... 5, 6, 7, 8. That's one side of the coin.

    The other side is that ALL Mech units have *terrible* matchup vs w2 and w3 (Berserker w2-3, Infantry line w2 excluded)... Say we have a projected values needed for each wave. Say that we play Mech. Peewee is not worth 25 in value on waves 1-4, but less - each probably ~20. At w5 and after, things change, value suddenly jumps up (till w7-w8), where mentioned and existing Peewee worth ~30.

    Why this? Mech, excluding w1-worker strategies, doesn't have much space for economy until w5. They can't use *any* towers vs. levels advantage (eg, passing wave with a lower value, because of tower inherent advantages - there isn't any). *Nothing* changes that, and mech economy starts after w4.

    Infantry-line strategies skip worker on w1 and allow different distribution, but carry their own burden later, and so is Berserker.

    Mech is an extreme race, where all things are blatantly clear - simply no good solutions and everything leading to pretty much the same, early-game.

    Other races (except lucky-roll MM) face the same, bit less but still. Worker w1, then build build then (if having good w4 counter in starting untis) worker3, if not more building.

    Boring.

    Requiring zero skill/knowledge, because all is written in stone - 'thou shalt build worker w1, because they shan't pass. thou shalt not build workers later, because they wilt'

    Small recommendation - reworking a bit starting summons, reworking a bit starting levels. Maybe change attack/defense type of one of the first waves. Reduce power and cost of early summons, make them viable in breaking w1-worker, but less viable in breaking w3/4 with saving from the start. Something like that, I mean just to mention things...
     
  10. deutscherhawk

    deutscherhawk Moderator

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    Oberstain with all respect, I feel like you havent played the last few patches. Most of your points in regards to wave strengths and weaknesses are wrong after the massive typing changes from 1.36, for instance peewee now has offensive advantage on 2, defensive advantage on 3, but is hard countered on 5/6. Similarly many worker 1 starts are now quite vulnerable to snail and it's not the automatic decision it used to be.
     
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  11. von Oberstain

    von Oberstain Member

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    This is true. My gaming experience since 1.34 was greatly reduced, but I did play *some* games. I'm playing more again now.

    Still, that can't be all wrong?

    [EDIT] On a separate note, I should upgrade the table...
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
  12. deutscherhawk

    deutscherhawk Moderator

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    Well the waves have been changed substantially, for instance where W2 was impact/natural its now impact/arcane, and w3 is now magic/natural from impact/swift. W5 no longer has magic damage, its pierce. From waves 1-10 only waves 1 and 7 were unchanged, so a lot of your discussion of early game mech is no longer applicable. And as mentioned wave 1 was substantially buffed that many builds which used to be safe will now leak to snail (i.e. Mudman, windhawk + aqua, consort + buzz just to name a few)
     
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  13. deutscherhawk

    deutscherhawk Moderator

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    I agree that ~13 workers by 15 is what we should be seeing, the problem is that this count is what we are seeing in public games without much sending where you are allowed to push heavily. In the minimal inhouse games we've had thus far for games that go to wave 13 or later (at which point worker count by and large will be equal since people stop pushing), the average worker count is only 9 per player. That feels exceptionally handcuffed in terms of what we can send, and it reminds me of before the big worker change when it felt like the entire second row of mercenaries is there to look at and only to be used once per game. One issue with the overall wave to mercenary balance is it means that public games are going to appear to have HUGE worker counts, because when I'm expecting to receive a snail on wave 10 I can go as low as 900 value, when in a competitive matchup I'm going to be closer to 1300.

    In other words, the worker counts I'm getting in public matches seem quite satisfactory, but when you get into a competitive game against skilled players you become quite starved, and it really takes away from the offensive fun of the game.

    I think the big place where 1.35 go out of hand in terms of worker counts was 11-14, when you could often spam 3-4 workers in a round if you werent expecting a send. I think A)you cant do that in experienced games as these are the waves where the deadly summons are coming, so this is a side-effect of the public game problem mentioned above, and B)These waves should probably force you to put in 300g to towers rather than 100-200 we would typically do.

    I fully sympathize with the difficult questions you have. I'm sure every issue and possible solution we've discussed you've already considered and had bouncing around in your head for a while. I agree with a lot of you are saying, and increasing the variety of opening builds will certainly help a lot, but I don't think it solves one underlying issue with the current patch I have that I dont see particularly well articulated here, that being the relative dearth of offensive firepower we have even into the late game. 1.35 got way out of hand with you being able to have up to 30 workers on extremely fed rounds, but I think this change has gone too far the other direction with a fed round now getting you 13-15 workers. Competitive games are where you really want to see the offensive firepower the game has come to life, and the current patch handicaps you at less than 10 workers. I think having a fed round being around 20ish workers and competitive games being at 12-13 seems to be about right--so still more workers than the current patch, but less than in 1.35.

    I'm frankly not having any fun because it feels like I can barely send the offensive firepower i need unless I save for 4-5 rounds again, which makes the game feel stale.
     
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  14. von Oberstain

    von Oberstain Member

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    Unrelated with my (previous) new-patches-unawareness week...

    Take Mech, for example. :)

    https://legiontd2.com/community/threads/a-comprehensive-balance-info-sheet-xlxs.9914/

    A new table. Mech is practically forced out of Peewee start, and into the domain of other units...

    Peewee - weak at w1, has to be overbuilt or paired with Infantry. T1 unit should be most useful at start, they won't exhibit sudden usefullness at w17, unless special abilities

    Infantry - rather say a Pyro, without early worker. Pyro ups and downs, can't see obvious place for second worker.

    APS - didn't try, looks now as a starting unit, but declines rapidly on w2-4

    Leviathan - the same

    Berserker, weak for w1 (but anything costing 240g will pass it), many ups and downs, usually where advantage should be kept for workers.

    For the first time in my LTD2 gaming life, I have to call underpowered card on Mech. But a simple Peewee buff would solve all. Don't really understand why it's constantly nerfed, it never, like, ruled anyway.

    Anyhow, my personal feeling is that all Mech build orders aren't allowing more than one worker until w5, or make it w6 since w5 became mech weak-point.

    Anyone who said that lower row of the summons looks like once-in-a-lifetime - I agree COMPLETELY with him...
     
  15. King

    King Member

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    I think I like the current restraints. I can get to 7-8 workers by 10 in most pubs without leaking more than maybe 5-10 units (this is excluding a big save and send). I think the current meta allows 1-2 peeps on a team to go heavy income till lvl 10 and count on the other 2 to build more and have less income.

    Yes, I rely on enemy leaks to get a bit more gold in, but isn't that the risk/investment tradeoff? But 14-15, I can reliably get 15-17 workers on most games if we weren't heavily punished by send/saves. But I think that's part of the thrill, if I/team can't read a big save/send and compensate for it, then I deserve that loss.

    Of course though, I'm specializing in 1-2 races atm, I don't touch mech (yeah weird unit orders pre lvl 10 imo, and element is not my style).
    idk i'm having fun this patch!