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2v2 vs 4v4 / Our plans to grow the game

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Jules, May 30, 2018.

  1. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    This thread is to consolidate discussion about 2v2 vs 4v4 and to communicate our plans to grow the game.

    Pros and cons of 2v2 over 4v4:

    + Better matchmaking
    + Better performance & pathing
    + More decision-making / less information-gathering
    + Easier communication
    + More accessible to new players

    - Less true to the original game
    - Can't party with 2-3 friends
    - Less social


    Why we made the change:

    Ultimately, the only reason we made the change is that we had to, not because we're evil devs who want people to have less fun. Legion TD 2 has around 75000 total players, 20000 monthly active players, and 3000 daily players. 4v4 matchmaking simply doesn't work for a playerbase this size.

    It may have worked fine for you, but it was not working well for many players, especially for players at the tail (very low-rated and very high-rated players). This meant that players sometimes waited over an hour to find a game and/or played with people that were 500+ difference in rating. This caused players at the tail to quit -> tails to shrink inward -> poorer matchmaking for everyone else. Matchmaking in 2v2 isn't perfect, but it's significantly better and faster.

    2v2 did not affect our player base.

    Our monthly/daily active player numbers were very similar before and after the change. This is what we expected, given that 91% of players played solo or duo when the game was 4v4. Some players did quit, while other players joined or became more active. The players that quit or strongly disliked the change have been very vocal. It's completely reasonable that these players aren't happy, and if you're one of those players, we're genuinely sorry.

    99% of games see a steady decline in player base.

    Very few games see a constant trend and even fewer games see an upward trend. For example, here is Battlerite (which is a great game with a team size of 41 people) after it launched out of Early Access:

    2018-05-30_16h29_25.png
    Battlerite active players

    Like it or not, this is the trajectory that most games take. The only way to grow a game is to add new content and reach new players.

    Growing Legion TD 2:

    Even if you don't hear from us every day, Lisk, Curing, and I are each working 50-60 hours/week on Legion TD 2. Switching to 4v4 or releasing small gameplay patches is not going to grow the game. We have to think bigger. Here's what we're currently working on:
    • Tutorial / intro bots. Right now, the new player experience is abysmal. Most of the time, new players are super confused -> lose their first few games against bots -> quit. I literally watched a game today where a new player, who is an active gamer and streamer and was trying his best, lost on wave 4. Creating a tutorial and making intro bots will help players learn the game and enjoy it enough to stick around.
    • New units. We'll continue releasing new units every few weeks. We know we can be faster here and are doing our best to improve.
    • Translating the game. We get emails every day from players who don't speak English but want to play. This is a massive untapped audience, and we believe the game will grow substantially after translating the game.
    • Marketing / sales. We'll continue doing frequent promotions and sales, especially after finishing the tutorial and translating the game.
    • Maintenance. We'll continue fixing bugs, releasing new abilities and legion spells, and balancing the game.
    In the future, we'd love to consider going free-to-play, but it's currently not an option. For now, we're confident in our plan and are doing everything we can to make Legion TD 2 the best game it can be.

    Thank you to everyone that has supported the game so far. :D
     
  2. foliesseer

    foliesseer Member

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    It's about time we got to hear this. I've stopped bothering responding to the "#BringBack4v4"-posts and comments since they won't listen to the rest of the community. I hope people that keep whining about 4v4 will start to understand that 2v2 is a good change, not a bad change. But that probably won't happen :p.
    Are you going to ask help from the community on translating the game or not? Since there are a lot of people in the community, including myself, that want to help you out translating the game to their native languages but it seems like there is no progress being made towards translations.


    Besides that, I also want to thank you guys for working on the game and being so strongly involved with the community. I was watching Akitos' v2.24b patch notes video and he was talking about how easy it is to contact you guys and have you look into a specific issue. It reminded me of the issues like the water dropping FPS on the 2v2 map, Protons not working with the Starcaller aura or Aqua Spirits getting sniped very early during pre-hotfix v2.24's wave 11. We always get feedback on these issues and they were fixed in a short amount of time, and I think that's really amazing.

    I just really appreciate you guys working on the game and being involved with the community. I play Legion TD 2 during my spare time (not playing games with friends or busy with school/work) and I really like the content you are pushing so far. I started playing this game just few weeks after the public release and I'm not planning to stop anytime soon. You're doing a great job :D.
     
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  3. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    Thanks for the kind words and for being such an active and helpful player, foliesseer.

    One thing to keep in mind is that some players (including Lisk) prefer 4v4 and others (including me) prefer 2v2. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. No one is wrong for saying “I find X more fun.” We didn’t make the change because we thought 2v2 was more fun; we made it because it was necessary.

    I should have been more clear about translation. The hard part isn’t the actual translations; it’s the technical component (making sure the game can support multiple languages). That requires LiskMagic(tm), and he’s currently busy with the tutorial and intro bots. Once we finish that technical component, we can probably translate the entire game in just a few days, and we’d love to have community help on his. We’ll make an announcement as soon as we’re ready for that.

    I’m happy to hear you’re enjoying the game. Hearing that genuinely puts a smile on my face and is exactly why I enjoy working in the games industry.
     
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  4. Seraphon

    Seraphon Member

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    That's a really interesting thread you have created here. I really appreciate that you communicate about your decisions even if I'm not sure it was absolutely necessary. I mean, people who dislike so much 2v2 will probably still think the playerbase is too low because of it. Even if you prove the contrary.

    I really think you took the best decision for this moment regarding the game development. The only decision we could disccuss about is "Do the game should be free-to-play or not?" I don't have enough skills in marketing/business to answer this question. So, let's think you have more skill than me and you took the right decision.

    Anyways, you still did a great job about development. I just hope one thing : you will grow your team to develop a bit faster. I can, of course, wait. But if I don't need to wait too much, it is better :D :D :D

    Keep going your good job. We believe in you and your game. Good luck and have fun ;)
     
  5. JetWylie

    JetWylie Member

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    Hey Jules,

    I started that thread because I just wanted to give honest feedback to you both! You and Lisk have truly created something amazing.

    I’ve always hated over vocal players in forums, particularly EA games ie Subnautica, 7 Days to Die etc etc...
    However I felt it necessary to give you honest feedback because...

    1. The game completely changed, not just slightly... radically, it is a completely different game for myself and others now.

    2. I do not find it fun anymore, seeing the same forsaken, grove and element builds over and over and over again with a long 40 minutes or so of next to no social interaction whatsoever...

    3. It was stated that that 2v2 was most likely temporary, it is now obvious it is permanent.

    I understand everything you say, and I never experienced queue times longer than 7 minutes or so, with that being said, I know you had to do something for the “Tail players”.

    I really want you guys to succeed, you really deserve it! And I know you are always acting in the best interests of the game and player base.

    To those other posters... stop bashing us for speaking our mind and giving feedback. I spent $20 and I believe I have the right to say how I feel about a change so massive, I don’t play anymore.

    No matter the direction you go Jules, I hope you succeed. If sticking with 2v2 makes it better and grows the player base, then so be it, most of us against 2v2 are not vindictive, we really love the game and care.

    Best of luck guys!
     
  6. WarPenguin

    WarPenguin Member

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    This is what this guys dont get, we all spend money, there are some rumours steam will soon implement refounds for EA games no matter the playtime if the gameplay get a massive change. In that case i would gladly took my 20eur back. I did try to stream the game last night, i started with 2400 viewers only 700 left after the first game, i have a feeling that tonight will be the same, even when i will gift 2 keys as a giveaway on stream. Usualy when i stream ltd from war 3 or starcraft 2 the wiewers never droped under 1500, that difference say much, at least for me.
     
  7. jitsuc4

    jitsuc4 Moderator

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    Where do you stream?
     
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  8. WarPenguin

    WarPenguin Member

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    https://creativemonkeyz.com/despre our site, same name on twitch, we are kinda a big deal in our country, we are curently other 4 poeple beside the founders who streams and take care of the youtube channel with tutorials and gameplays
     
  9. Der Geo

    Der Geo Member

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    And ypur contend is booring, this is the reason why your viewers go away.
    Look on twich Akitos stream. There has big viewers and all still there. No one left his stream.
     
  10. WarPenguin

    WarPenguin Member

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    https://www.youtube.com/user/CreativeMonkeyzArmy/featured our almost 1mil subscribers say otherwise
     
  11. Der Geo

    Der Geo Member

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    Its my personal meaning. Some one like piza some one not.
    I like the Akitos steam and your booring.
    Example: if Akitos stream wc3 i dont leav him, but I dont like wc3. Iam still there for him and his community.
    Maybe your community is not so fame of you
     
  12. Roshkatul

    Roshkatul Member

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    Are you really working for creativemonkeyz? Doubt it, I'm thinking that people working there would have better English/would actually express their ideas better.. but, i don't really follow your content.. so I might be wrong.. But this continuous rage on the forum, did not give me a good impression about you.
     
  13. Akitos

    Akitos Member

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    I'll comment those 1 by 1.

    + Better matchmaking
    1) Sorry to disappoint, but faster does not equal better. In order to elobarate this I'll quote something else you wrote and comment on that:

    I have been at the very top throughout early access in both season 1 and 2, hitting rank 1 on multiple occasions. So one might assume I could tell you something about how matchmaking is like "at the tail". You claim that matchmaking is "better" now, so let me start with telling you how matchmaking really is for tail players at the moment (speaking of top tail, not bottom):

    The matchmaking is a lot faster compared to what it used to be in 4v4, however, that's mostly due to me hitting the "find me a game asap" button all the time, because I feel like I get the same shit games no matter if I decide to wait longer or not; not to mention that almost all high elo players hit the button, so if you don't, you might get skipped.

    What does getting skipped mean for me? Well, that's simple. Real high elo games are pretty much extinct. You have "low" elo guys in almost every single game to compensate players like myself. So if some high elo players que up and hit the button while I don't, they'll get into a match almost instantly, as the system finds waaay lower elo players to compensate them. I didn't hit the button tho, so I cannot get matched with those lower elo players yet. However, since the other high elos found a game already thanks to the button, I am waiting for nothing. Afterall, the people I am supposed to play with are already in a game. So what effectively happens is that I wait longer just so that I get matched with people way below my elo anyway. Result: probably an even worse game than with the button.

    Anyway, that's an issue with the "yolo button", which is not really related to 2v2. So back on topic:

    On average I'd say I wait around a minute, often less. That sounds like a good thing right? Faster matchmaking? That's "better", correct? I'm sure Jules would say it's better. But I say that alone does not make a matchmaking any better. Wanna know why? Sure, let me get to fact number 2 about the current situation: poorly balanced matches.

    I am sorry Jules, but this "or played with people that were 500+ difference in rating" made me laugh so fucking hard. You make it sound like this is a thing of the past, as if it was an issue with 4v4 that has vanished with 2v2, but it didn't. Infact, matchmaking got a lot fucking worse for top tail (explanation follows).

    I play with people way below both my elo and skill level every single day. And if that wasn't enough, I do it for unbalanced rating changes. On average it's something like +13/-19, often worse, and if it's better, well, then it's usually the same unbalance just vice versa. Just today I had a game, after legit less than 10 seconds in queue, with +12/-20 while being matched with a 1522 elo player (being at 1985 elo myself). This simply ain't fun. And games like this are nothing unusual. On average my teammates are around 300 elo below me, with extremes being 500+.

    Wanna know what that means in 2v2? I have to always call the shots. I feel like whenever I am not watching my mate does something stupid. I can not rely on my him. I can not ask him for advice or learn from him. I can not communicate on eye level with him. I feel bad whenever he does stupid things, because it feels like I am obligated to babysit him. I feel bad about having spent thousands of hours in a game, just to constantly get matched with players with significantly less experience, never feeling like we're equals. Obviously there is exceptions to those things, but on average the feeling is overall the same: you feel alone.

    Which brings me to why 4v4 matchmaking was better, despite the same elo differentials within games and the slightly longer queue times.

    Yes, matchmaking was a little bit slower. I guess on average I waited around 5 minutes for a game, which seems very reasonable for being this high elo. Even in a big ass game like LoL really high elo players have to wait up to 20 minutes. This is perfectly normal and Jules idea of instant matchmaking for all players is nothing but a god damn illusion/dream which he forces on us. Tail players simply do not have to expect instant queue pops.

    As I explained above, the elo differentials in 2v2 are insane for tail players, and honestly, even for average elo players. Friend of mine got matched with a 1100 elo player (being 1300 himself) in less than a minute. I don't know you about you guys, but that's simply too fast for such an awful match. Sorry for drifting off, back on track: in both 2v2 and 4v4 we've had massive elo diffentials within the teams on high elo. The only thing that changed is the speed at which said games are found (faster with 2v2).

    Does that make matchmaking better? HELL NO! Why?

    Simple: in 4v4 you did have massive elo differentials to compensate high elo players, yes. Same in 2v2. But what's the difference? In 4v4 there was also always at least one other player of your skill/elo level on your team! YOU WERE NOT ALONE. You fucking are in 2v2! Yes, being on a 4v4 team with 2 people 300 to 500 elo below you and one other guy felt bad, but that does not feel nearly as bad as having someone 300 to 500 elo below you WHEN YOU'RE THE ONLY OTHER PERSON ON THIS "TEAM". Not to mention that those games were at least almost always 16/16!!! I remember so many games where I had real shit players on my team, but at least I had one guy on my team who I could count on. Who I could speak to. Who was on eye level with me. This is what made those games endurable. But in 2v2... If you have a way worse mate, which you almost always have as a really high elo player, you simply feel alone in the dark and have no one to talk to. Might aswell play a single player game then...

    To sum this all up I created a pros and cons list myself.

    Pros and cons of 2v2 over 4v4 (in terms of matchmaking)
    + faster queue (that might also be because of everyone hitting the yolo button these days tho)
    - worse rating changes
    - same elo differentials within teams, with the difference that you mostly had at least one player close to your elo in 4v4, while you're alone in 2v2

    So yeah, Jules, sorry bro, but your "better matchmaking" point should be called "faster matchmaking". It isn't better. Maybe on paper, for you, it is. But is not in terms of how the game feels.


    + Better performance & pathing
    2) Ok. It did indeed improve a fair amount. It's sad that this is an argument tho considering it's mostly due to spaghetti code and could certainly be solved, instead of hackfixed. Let's be honest, changing to 2v2 to compensate for poor client/server/engine performance is nothing but a workaround.


    + More decision-making / less information-gathering
    3) I don't see how exactly we're supposed to have more decision-making. Care to explain? The decision-making feels very dulled down compared to 4v4, and the required communication within "teams" has never been so low before.

    About the less information-gathering part: I don't see how this is a pro argument. I guess you fail to understand that information-gathering has always been a big part of what made LTD both interesting and challenging. Back in WC3 with fog of war there was something called scouting. A "scout" was when you revealed enemy fighters, as they could only be seen in the catching zone if there were leaks. Proper scouting was a huge part of competitive LTD and a massive skill task. Good players could call out builds based on the hitpoints of their leaks or even kill timings (watching the counter which shows how many creeps are alive at each side). Some towers were actually pretty easy to scout based on kill timings. Ygg on wave 2 for example. While others were rather obvious based on leak hp (thinking of a low hp furb leak on wave 2; smells EA).

    Either way, this does not really belong into a 2v2 vs 4v4 discussion, considering it's a question of game balancing and providing the necessary game depth to keep players interested on the long run.

    Overall it simply isn't true that there is less information-gathering. Why you asking?

    In the early game you were pretty much playing 2x 2v2. So you had the same information-gathering in both 2v2 and 4v4 (in the early game). Real 4v4 sends (in the early game) only happened if all lanes had a similar weaknesses, and in that case you had something called "multiple players" to help with noticing this. This brings me to why your argument is kinda nonsense:

    We already spoke about how the early game in 4v4 was really only 2x 2v2, but the mid & late game was 4v4. So while you had the same information-gathering in the early game, you had "more" in mid & late. However, you also had more players to do this information gathering. It was not like just because there were 4 enemy lanes, you personally had to gather way more information. That's complete bullshit. What really happened was that you'd gather information on your opponent and be like "my guy is weak on 13 & 14" and then the next guy said "mine is weak on 12, 13", next was "mine on 11 & 13" and the last "mine on 13". OH GOSH, SO MUCH MORE INFORMATION-GATHERING. Oh no, wait, actually, it's the same information-gathering for me. So what is different? Ohhhh. Right. MORE DECISION-MAKING. Because now, you, as a team, had to decide on when to send. All of you gathered information about your individual opponent and then you made a team based decision. In this game it was likely going to be 13.

    In comparison the 2v2 scenario: "my guy is weak 13 & 14", "mine is weak on 13 too". Notice anything? Same gathering. Honestly, it's not even more decision-making. The amount of decision-making does not change with the amount of players^^ The amount of teamwork/communication necessary does. And I dare to say that in a game that tries to be "the first competitive tower defense" and a "team game" additional teamwork is something good.

    The only time when there was more information-gathering for one player, was if that player was in a game with waaaay worse people and had to do the gathering for them. But if that was the case, that guy was so fucking high elo that he didn't care if he does that for 2 or 4 lanes. For the average player it was always a team efford. 2 more lanes to watch out for -> 2 more players to watch out. Simple math...


    + Easier communication
    4) That depends on how you define easy, and, more importantly, if that is actually a pro argument. Once again: LTD is meant to be a team game, and team games require coordination and communication. This is part of what makes them interesting. Currently the amount of communication & coordination is close to 0. Go ahead and watch a WC3 LTD game... It's so much more fun in terms of teamplay/communication. So yeah, overall I'd say it's not "easier communication", but instead "dulled down communication".


    + More accessible to new players
    5) A tutorial would help more than any change from 4v4 to 2v2 ever could... If new players would be told that their early game is mostly 2v2 in 4v4 aswell, I don't think there'd be much of a difference. Like, comparing with other games, LoL for example, I dare to say that 3v3 is not more accessible to new players than 5v5 :D You still lane 1v1 or 2v2 right? Just like in 5v5.


    - Less true to the original game
    6) Yes, and this is a big issue, not just with 2v2, but in general. The game is soooooo different than the versions which made both the wc3 and sc2 mods a big success. Overall ltd2 is more of a dulled down version of the mods, instead of an expansion.


    - Can't party with 2-3 friends
    7) Another big issue. And it's not just that. It's also simply less interesting for streams/youtube as there is less things happening, and those are very important in helping to grow the game.


    - More variance in Mastermind rolls
    8) Guess we've had this discussion on other players more than enough. We all know 2v2 is way more rng than 4v4, as there is less players to balance out rng elements such as mastermind rolls or even holding rng. Just had a game today where we sent on 13 and my guy leaked only 1 low hp creep and a low hp kraken. In custom testing he leaked 4 creeps, half hp kraken and a mole on my first attempt (and in custom his mudman & golem weren't even dehardened, in the real game they were...). We're talking about the difference between taking minor king dmg, and losing way above 50% of your kings hp. This kind of rng is obviously insanely reduced in 4v4, as the leak variance of one player does not swing the tides as hard. In 2v2 however you can literally either lose 5-10% king hp or DIE from 100% to 0% based on rng!!! Obviously this can happen in 4v4 too, but it's a lot less likely.


    - Less social
    9) HUGE ISSUE. It's not just the fact you only have 1 other guy on your "team" instead of 3, it's also the issue mentioned above. If I didn't have my stream to talk to, I would've quit this game with 2v2, because I rarely ever have someone on my team who feels like we belong together. As I said, in 4v4 there was mostly at least 1 on your team who was fine and that you could speak to.


    Cut out the "significantly better and" and you're saying the truth. It is significantly faster. Not at all better tho. Read above.

    Hahahaha. Ok. Ok. And uhm.. Am I the only one noticing that you did have a massive marketing push AFTER 2v2? You did lose craploads of players throughout the change to 2v2, you just replaced them tho xDD That's why it "did not affect our playerbase". And please cut the "given that 91% of players played solo or duo when the game was 4v4" bullcrap. Just because players played either solo or duo, it does not mean they prefer 2v2. Like, 2v2 is a completly different game. It's not even comparable in how it plays and especially in how it feels. Most players in LoL probably also play solo or duo. Do you think that means they prefer 3v3 over 5v5? Do you even listen to yourself sometimes?

    "But it's also important to consider the actual numbers. Changing to 2v2 had little to no effect on our playerbase." You and your numbers... Your numbers also said it's optimal to focus miniboss last at 15 and we all knew how that turned out. Jokes aside: YOU DID A MASSIVE MARKETING PUSH AFTER 2v2!! I'd bet all I have that if you did the same marketing push with 4v4, we'd have more players now! Also it simply does not make any sense that you claim matchmaking does not work because there is not enough players, and that this is the main reason you switched to 2v2, just so that you could do a crazy marketing push right after. That legit does not make any god damn sense. Is there any logical explanation to why you never did any marketing pushes while the game was still 4v4?
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2018
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  14. Snoobzzz

    Snoobzzz Member

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    I really appreciate that you give us the chance to have a open discussion about this.
    If something is unclear due to my bad english im realy sry for this.
    I cant agree with two points on that list tbh.
    1. We dont have a better matchmaking right now. It's just faster.
    2. I wouldnt say that "more decision making/less information-gathering" is a pro argument. You have to do the same decisions as in 4v4, but u have to gather less informations. It just feels a lot less fun, because information gathering was a huge part, wich made the game interesting.

    I will be totaly honest with you on this point. I was one of them. I waited for hours and hours to get a game(105 mins max.) . I wasnt able to play at "off-hours", because there werent enough people in my elo range online. And i think you can imagine that this realy sucked :D

    BUT.....
    I realy dislike the game as it is right now. And i realy would prefer to wait another 105 mins each game, dont play at off hours etc. to get that feeling back, that this game once had.
    It was exciting and realy fun, giving your best and trying to win every single game.
    I know that some people considered me beeing toxic back in 4v4. And i know that i was sometimes. But that was simply due to the fact, that i realy loved playing this game, giving my best to win, and realy cared about the game, elo, ladder and so on.

    Nowdays i simply dont care about all these things. The ladder is a bad joke. (I dont want to offend anyone), but the skill lvl of the playerbase decreased realy hard.
    The "less information gathering" just made the game less exciting and fun to play. And tbh its just boring after 2-3 games a day. (max.), wich is also due to the constant nerfing of every unit, so that everything is "equal".
    As well as playing a lot of games with "low elo" players. I think Akitos made some good points about that. And i also agree that pure "high elo " games just extinct.

    Due to the marketing push after the change to 2v2 this is true. But you simply switched experienced good players (a lot of them) for new players, wich leads to the current state of the non-existing competitive environment.

    I realy understand this. And i realy appreciate your work and your closeness to the community. I realy LIKE this
    But i just prefer 4v4 :p

    Thank you for reading this :D
     
  15. Mick

    Mick Member

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    This 123 is not the right story of Battlerite, though. Battlerite existed before that in a pay-version (20 dollar). The peak you are describing is when they changed to free-2-play. Of course there will be a peak of people trying the game, which will decline. However, they went from 1,000/2,000 average players in the paid version, to still 4,000 players in the f2p and pay-for-heroes (the change was made over 6 months ago by now). It is a totally different trend than ltd2. Maybe a reason to change to f2p?

    Besides, a main reason why the game does not grow is not the lack of people trying, but keeping people interested in the game. If you compare LTD2 to the wc3 mod, it is less dynamic and interesting, and I have been playing that game for over 5 years by now. That is not a good sign. You should really consider making this game more layered, for example with multiple uses of mythium (king upgrades), where you need to decide whether you can hold enough to send, or you need to upgrade your defences, and the enemy needs to decide if you are saving or upgrading. Just this one example makes the game already far more interesting.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2018
  16. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    I can't respond to everything, but I read and will continue reading everything. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, everyone. It's amazing to see people who care about the game.
    Even before Battlerite went F2P, you can see their steady decline over the months, from a pre-F2P high of 16,584 weekly players to a low of 2,022. Either way, that was just one example - the vast majority of games have a similar curve. That's not meant to be an excuse. I was just putting things into perspective.

    We'd love to try F2P in the future. Here are the major things we'd have to do first:
    • Improve server stability/scalability to be able to support tens of thousands of players online at once
    • Build a tutorial - F2P attracts less competitive players on average
    • Translate the game into other languages - F2P attracts more non-English speakers
    • Build out better reporting and banning tools - F2P brings more griefing, leaving, etc. because people care less about their accounts
    • Build out more anti-cheating tools - F2P attracts more cheaters, hackers, and botters
    • Build out a store
    • Build out a monetization model
    • Make a bunch of cosmetics (skins, etc.)
    • Fix critical bugs (there are still a few critical bugs that prevent players from playing)
    • Improve game performance - F2P attracts players on lower end computers
    • This would all take at least 6-9 months of work
    It's a mix of the two. There are still a lot of players that:
    • Haven't heard of the game
    • Can't play because the game isn't translated into their language
    • Can't play because the game won't run on their computer
    You're right that there are some players that don't stick around because of perceived lack of depth or content, but the primary reason people quit is that they don't understand the game and lose their first few games. Losing is highly correlated with quitting. For most new players, it’s tough to learn the game and get to the point where you can appreciate the strategic nuances of the game.

    The second most common reason people quit is long queue times. We actually saw the steepest drop in players when we tuned matchmaking to wait too long for fairer games. Many highly competitive players (including me) tend to be tolerant of long queue times because we like playing fair games, but most players aren't. Lisk pointed this out to me, and he was right. I agree there's a lot we can do to add more strategic depth to the game, but right now, our priority is accessibility and new content. Hope that makes sense!
     
  17. Bluejin

    Bluejin Member

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    2v2statistics.png
    After the 2v2-change, you lost about 50 peak players. Then you did a marketing push, more than doubling the peak players for a short while, and a month later, the peak is back to where it was before the marketing push.

    Edit : Oh, and the relatively remarkable drop shortly before the 2v2 change is most likely attributed to the 1.79 patch where 2v2 was announced for March 26.
     
  18. GvR Mr Mister

    GvR Mr Mister Member

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    Dunno if im happy with people in my team not being able to speak to me.... Ofc there are pings when to send, but some things are not covered by it ("im weak at 15, can u hold it", "when do u wanna send?", "i have full arcane armor, can you cover pierce waves" for example). Imo non english speakers should not play an international competive game in that they have to talk with their teammates to win. Atm there are many people only speaking german/french in global/ingame, even if their teammate does not understand anything. This will become a much larger issue if the game is available in different languages
     
  19. Roshkatul

    Roshkatul Member

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    I would think that the absence of a competitive scene, in a game which focuses on being a competitive tower defense, is more of a problem than game translation. I am quite sad that a proper spectator mode is still not one of the main focuses. You underestimate how many old players a competitive scene, with weekly tournaments can attract to the game.
     
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  20. foliesseer

    foliesseer Member

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    To Akitos:
    Isn't this still just a yolo-button issue? Since without the yolo-button queue times would take longer (like you sad) but it would also allow you to queue with people closer to your elo range. You probably still get matchmade with 1700-ish players because of the low amount of very-high elo players but it would at least push up the elo range of players queued with/against you.
    I agree with you that this is purely a "band aid-fix" but I think this didn't really impact the decision of Lisk and Jules very much. It could definitely be fixed but that would also mean they would be allocating resources on bugfixing rather than pushing new content. I don't know how I feel about this really.
    It allows you to more communicate with your "neighbor" (the person you share your lane with) during the early game without the need of taking into account the other 2 players' lanes. In 4v4 it was pretty hard to make a group effort to send as a team in the early game, but 2v2 enables this alot more. It's more about being able to make the decision than the decisionmaking itself.

    And it's less informating-gathering because I personally have to look at 2 lanes, not 4. In 2v2 I generally look at both the enemy players' builds and I advise my ally to send on wave x with me, rather than having my ally tell me what wave his opponent is bad on. With 4v4 that would be alot harder for me to track.


    I think your other points are valid, however these are the points I don't fully agree with and I would like to hear your thoughts on this.

    To Snoobzzz:
    I think if anyone besides you would need to queue up for over 60 minutes to find a game, they would just stop playing the game. Almost nobody is willing to give up 60 minutes of their time to play a game a single game of 30 minutes.

    And the main issue with the ladder is that it is barely shifting upwards. Just a week or two after the season reset, you could be top100 with ~1500 elo and top10 with ~1800 elo. Right now you need to be around ~1700 elo for top100 and ~2000 elo for top10, which is barely a shift at all. May I also add that during the first few weeks I was hovering around the top100 spots (~1520 elo) and currently I am climbing pretty easily to 1700, now that I have time to play the game? The players in the top100 didn't improve, meaning that good players just beat these lower-elo players over and over again. Matchmaking just sucks for the high elo players right now and I can understand the frustration that causes this.

    About translating the game:
    I mean, this is also an issue with games like League (people only speaking french and german) and the only way to solve this is to make pings for these things.

    About accessibility:
    Fully agree. If I never learned my friends how to play the game then they would've probably refunded it. The game is not new-player friendly at all and I was pretty happy that you were focusing on developing a tutorial. This reminds me of season 1, when I was really bad at the game and I played like 50 hours of botgames just because I didn't know how to win normal games. New players will probably try out normals, get stomped and then just leave. A tutorial will help this problem alot.

    Competitive Scene:
    I think we need more community events in general. This can be something like a tournament hosted by a player, or something silly like Legion TD 2 Bingo. I think that would attract old and new players aswell.