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A comprehensive balance/info sheet (.xlxs)

Discussion in 'Balance Discussion' started by von Oberstain, Jun 27, 2017.

  1. von Oberstain

    von Oberstain Member

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    It's mainly done. So now I should yet again write something about how-to-use... And post it as a separate thread... Many, many bugs were harmed in this process!

    'raw' sheet

    This sheet analyses units. It has many, many columns, and isn't very Oberstain-friendly, much less user-friendly! Most important stuff is simplified as possible.

    The first couple of columns are self-explanatory (race, then some unimportant flyer/upgrade yes/no's, then unit name). Nothing to see, except the names, of course.

    Following (black background, green/red if positive/negative) are 5 semaphores, which pretty much sum the unit stats and value, compared to other units. Last one ('mix') is pretty much most important one and gives general unit value - say, Buzz is worth 125% of average stats. Next column ('RVal') is the same, except it's expressed in gold - Buzz performs as a unit worth of 25g.

    *For a user who looks for more, M3 semaphore is pretty much unit downsized to combat stats, so without abilities. Personally, I used all others (modded, m2, m4) just to make visible different aspects temporarily, until it's all 'mix'

    Next are unit stats - anyone can just enter changed numbers into white fields, everything is recalculated automatically. Coloured fields are either general (such as DPS and CD) formulas and shouldn't be touched - really no need to; or specific formulas (such as DPSmod and HPmod) - those are my approximation of damage or hp modifiers (example - Whitemane has +25% HP, very clean and correct; some are much more arbitrary)

    Worth mentioning are Ab1mod and Ab2 mod - percentage-based coefficients of abilities that can't be calculated mathematically. Those were put with some idea, and that idea may be wrong.

    There are also HPs/g and DPS/g columns.

    **The main purpose of this sheet is to help balancing - Ranger is listed as unit which is worth 47g, and I indeed feel that 45g is what it should cost. 'Playing' with Attsp, DMG and HP can 'fix' unit to the desired price - in both ways - and there are DPS/g and HP/g when specializing unit to be balanced, dps-er or tanky.

    'waves' and 'summons' sheets

    Pretty self-explanatory and, not so obvious but still - print-friendly (as are all sheets, except 'raw').

    Last, coloured columns represent wave/summon value in gold ('Mod Val'), based on a typical cost of DPS and HP in gold, also given separately in appropriate columns. 'Mod Val' for waves obviously depends on unit attack/armour composition and expected summons, so it's probably in +-20% range (and more in the first few levels). Summons sheet also has 'Val / Myth' column, showing - yes - value divided by mythium cost.

    'Towers-Waves' and 'Towers-Summons' sheets


    Show modifiers to a unit against waves or summons, based on armour/attack type. Peewee, for example, has a disastrous wave1 and wave2, becoming better later (or much better, such as on wave5 and wave7), with a few downfalls later. Upgrading to Veteran doesn't change anything in this regard.

    Buzz start, on the opposite, has excellent armour/attack type for the first four levels, and upgrade to Consort changes unfavourable situation on wave5. Nobody should start with Wileshroom.

    How to read?

    Use logic and experience. Mathematical approximations are one thing, they are meant to help, not to give definitive answers. A Certain unit could be useful and good, even if numbers show differently - probably approximation doesn't take in account everything needed.

    Things like Zeus and Ranger excels in tanking against 4-eyes? Really??? The table says so, but this should obviously be ignored. On the same matter, if read properly, the table gives an answer to '4-eyes being overpowered' fact - this summon excels against each tanking unit likely to find mid-to-endgame (well, except Bananas, which is yet another reason to put them into tanking position for the players who still hide them).
     

    Attached Files:

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  2. Aieron

    Aieron Member

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    Really appreciate you posting this!! I was trying to decipher everything last night and was going to ask you about it today haha.

    Edit: A suggestion: I'm going to do this on my own, but I thought I'd post it as an idea for you too. It would be really useful for playing MM if we could filter the Towers-Waves and Towers-Summons pages based on the units we have.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
  3. Cyrock

    Cyrock Member

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    That's an insane amount of work you must have put into this. I really appreciate it you sharing this !
     
  4. von Oberstain

    von Oberstain Member

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    It wasn't *that* much - I did the same before, and my day job requires things like this occasionally. Additionally, I already had something like this for old LTD - so it was majorly adjusting it...

    Anyway, a new patch brings new version!
     

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  5. von Oberstain

    von Oberstain Member

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    A short notice:

    I won't update the table for 1.31, since 1.32 should include many changes.

    I may have thought out an easy way to implement separate MM-specific sheet...
     
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  6. LForward

    LForward Community Manager Staff Member

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    Thank you very much for this @von Oberstain

    Now we only need to "value" all the abilities into this and we are good to go :p

    I noticed that the values of mercenaries are really high, I actually expected that, if we calculate wave value + merc values for certain sends we reach almost impossible values to hold these levels. Example: 2 Brutes Level 5 is 550+2*138=826 Value needed while you only get 250g+342g=592g for the first 4 Levels. This requires you to either have a really good atk/armor setup, good unit abilities or luck with pathing, a low push is required anyways.

    I went a little offtopic on this but I think we could use many examples from this sheet to show that there is some kind of imbalance when it comes to mercenaries.
     
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  7. von Oberstain

    von Oberstain Member

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    Abilities (in all cases) are somewhat... arbitrary. While doing the same for LTD1, I've relied on pre-existing experience whenever unsure - for instance, various stuns were rated, depending on bonus damage and stun length to 3, 5 or 10%. Here, I put it to 25% for Brute, but stunning one early higher tier unit is not at all equal to stunning massed T1.

    Another example would be APC, where I put a bonus of 10% - 2 bazookas give 100 DPS meaning that APC requires some 14 bazookas need to be already present to have an actual gain. I build one at about second supply upgrade, and from that point onward it's value is greater than 10%. Value for LTD1 Commander was much easier to predict, because the unit was a regular part of almost every early Mech build order, due to its good raw stats and availability.

    Basically, each value in Ab1 and Ab2 mod is still under changes, so suggestions are welcome.
     
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  8. von Oberstain

    von Oberstain Member

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    v1.32 is attached.

    Short QA:
    1. Why some % values change, if there are no actual stats change?
    - everything is based on average HP/DPS pool, so if global HP/DPS pool is changed, average HP/g and DPS/g change too - this is affecting all units and consequences are changes in %-based values

    2. Unit total/wave is different in real life than in the tables?
    - there are more factors; for instance, Rangers are unlikely to tank and even if they do they are bad at it, due to low HP; it's safe to ignore their armour values globally; also, number of units changes a lot of things - massing Rangers causes most of the waves/summons to be marked, so all Pierce damage is affected, which is not the case for single Ranger; focus fire ability is not calculated, but it exists

    3. "Behemoth" factor?
    - wave with 6 HP-heavy units is always harder to pass then the same number of normal-HP ones; levels 6 and 13 are stronger than numbers will represent, because they tend to die slower while doing the same DPS; Bosses and mini-Bosses have *some* bonus added, but not all the waves

    4. Promised MM table?
    - well... I haven't finished it; even update for 1.32 is kinda late, owning much to my laziness; I still plan to do it in the future - same as mixed damage for Zeus and Violet, for example

    5. Are wave values incorrect?
    - no, if all the units were Pure/Immaterial and were unable to focus fire; otherwise they are, but armour/attack bonuses (given in the table) affects them further; those are just guidelines and specific builds can change a lot

    6. While at it, how come Pyro is ranked so high?
    - 25% dispersed damage is something like 16.5dps; it means a lot for the first few levels, where HP is low; to achieve the same for 300HP ones, there should be much more Pyros; even then, the approximate value is just that - it considers *some* (3, to be exact) units to be affected by AoE and this is highly questionable
     

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  9. AsK

    AsK Member

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  10. Sokushi

    Sokushi Member

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    One that I put together a couple of weeks ago attached.
     

    Attached Files:

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  11. Sokushi

    Sokushi Member

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    Mine's based on v1.31 I believe btw - it's outdated.
     
  12. von Oberstain

    von Oberstain Member

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    There!

    A 1.39 version!

    Q: von Obernstain, is this a product of suboptimal quality?
    A: Send that straight to Jules, he balances at insane speed! Faster than I can type and that's very fast!

    Q: Rephrasing: *what* is suboptimal?
    A: Well.... Summons. Didn't touched them at all. Just ignore them for now, I'll do that later. Also, ignore the summons/towers table (because of them summons, towers are right). Also, some 1.39 changes (ones regarding waves that aren't documented on site as of now).

    Q: Anything new?
    A: Well, yes. Updated Tower/Waves table, now it contains another row which shows how much unit values at a certain wave, depending on attack/defense type. (Also changed the formula, this one is similar but should be better and more representative). Fixed a bunch of things, but it's usual...

    Q: MM sheet?
    A: No. But! I added a small filter in Towers/Waves, the player is able to select towers shown by name (MM Chooser) or race (Race). Some of it borders treason and heresy (MM part :) ) - but since I'm making all my number-crunching available, it is so easy for a programmer to extract data and show it, probably in a much more eye-pleasing way. So, it's there - and I am deeply ashamed because the way I did it, it's veryvery cheesy excel technique, not worthy of me...

    Q: Unit, according to your ModVal column is worth between 70-170%??? You're insane!
    A: I am. Have that in writing. But not when it comes to math (though -30% low (70%) equals +40% high (170%), to be taken into account) - at least there's a method to the madness. The direct counter is indeed mighty, and so is the opposite. It very well worth 30-40%...
     

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  13. Gawil

    Gawil Member

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    WOW ! I was creating the exact same sheet for unit studying purpose ! Then I found this gem searching for summons stats. You are my hero @von Oberstain :)
     
  14. MC1R

    MC1R Member

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    Well done! You should share this via Google spreadsheets tho. That way we could view it online, also you can give editing premission to multiple people to keep it updated more frequently.
     
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  15. Madness

    Madness Member

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    I would like to use some of this info for my own analysis. Is it ok to use your sheet as the starting point for my use? Even better, where did you source all of the base info (before you did your calculations)? Did you just go in game and enter each, or is there a table somewhere I can use?

    Any and all help is greatly appreciated.
     
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  16. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    You can also see unit stats on the website: LegionTD2.com/guide/units
     
  17. von Oberstain

    von Oberstain Member

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    Yes, of course it's ok to use it. Fact is, I have a newer one (1.54), but I doubt I'll be updating it soon. It lacks Summon info, everything else should be correct.

    Data originates from site, while modifiers are experience-based

    Best of luck!
     

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  18. Chuckxic

    Chuckxic Member

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    I am not able to open your sheet with OpenOffice. Do you have any ideas why?

    The loading just stop around 50%. I tried to redownload the file, open previous versions, same results...
     
  19. von Oberstain

    von Oberstain Member

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    Might be some OpenOffice/MS Office compatibility problem. LibreOffice Calc opens it without difficulties and preserves links and filters. I personally prefer Libre to OpenOffice... Version attached works both in Libre and MS Office, so file isn't corrupted...