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A plea for transparent moderating

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Mick, Jun 26, 2019.

  1. Mick

    Mick Member

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    As you may know, Roshkatul has been perma-banned here. This caused some upset. I must say, I would be the first to defend the moderators/developers with their rulings. I have been a moderator in the Legion in-house League for 5 years and have had the most difficult time dealing with people there. So even if I disagree, or think they should have ruled differently, I will respect their difficult situation.

    However, I do think it is really wrong if you don’t give the other side a chance. After all, even moderators are humans, and with all their good intentions it’s always possible they made a mistake. They can misinterpret something, missed the whole context or judge something light too harshly. That is why, especially if you think fairness and honesty is really important, you should always give the specifics, so the moderator himself is also assured he did not make his ban on wrong terms. Tagging @Lisk for this, since he has repeatedly said he thinks those things are very important.

    Now I will proceed to show how the devs/mods don’t do that and with that willingly risk unfair (perma-)bans. I hope it’s just ignorance and that they will repair that after seeing this.

    Roshkatul got a perma-ban, which changed into a final warning(I believe that the final warning was unfair too, but let’s keep that outside of this). Around a week after the final warning he got perma-banned. This was the message on discord that announced his perma-ban.

    Deutscherhawk last thursday

    A long-term player, Roshkatul, has been permabanned for consistent targeted harassment of developers both in and out of the game with the intention of harming the game and for repeatedly attempting to circumvent bans. He has been given multiple warnings over the months, and since his final warning a few days ago, he has continued the same behavior. To be clear, this ban is not for criticizing the game, criticizing developers, or trolling. Roshkatul has demonstrated a pattern of aggressive, targeted behavior for many months. Individual incidents are minor on their own, but dozens of incidents across multiple platforms, including in-game, have made it impossible to ignore. This decision was met with unanimous approval by the mod team. We have only permabanned 6 players out of 92,000 accounts, so this decision was not taken lightly.

    After that, a lot of confusion started among players. The statement ‘continued the same behaviour’ did not resonate with anyone. So people started asking what that behaviour was. There was no more reply to this. By deduction, we thought there was no other reason possible than that Roshkatul joined a PTR game of Jules with his friend Bonny, who were together testing before Jules made his game. We thought they made a mistake thinking this was harassing, so we wanted to know if this was really the reason, or something else. No single response again.

    So after he was dealing with other things, I decided to ask him again if the reason was for joining PTR. Here you can see my question and his response.

    Mick last friday 23:19
    can i also ask why you banned roshkatul for joining ptr when i was there yesterday too? he did nothing wrong. thats really bullshit
    Jules last friday 23:23
    The decision was met unanimously by the mod team + staff, and we gave our response. Sorry if it's not the exact answer you're looking for, but I'm going to focus on the patch now, since it's important we get it right

    So we decided to wait after the deal with the patch to ask in more calmness, when he had more time to explain. Here you see some text of people questioning it again and my request for an explanation.

    Jqob yesterday 19:49
    I also don't understand how they don't have time to provide proof for Rosh's permaban, but take their time to ban him in the first place (on all platforms_
    surely it doesnt take as much time
    nimea yesterday 19:52
    No one understands
    Jqob yesterday 19:52
    either provide proof or admit a mistake, thats the best for everyone
    Mick yesterday 20:08
    yea agreed @jqob . some may know i quit this game because this ban and no explanation lead me to believe the devs/moderators have no intention of being 'fair', they just want this player out. thats not a type of ppl i like to have power in an environment im in. i questioned jules a bit earlier about it and he said he couldnt go into it because of the new patch. i hope he does have the decency to come up with the specific ban reason now, so i can be assured and play this game again. i think its only a fair request and that both roshkatul and me waited for it after the patch to be released so there would be more time for that

    No surprise, it was ignored again. Jules did answer other things, but left those messages untouched. So I decided to ask straight up. Here you see the question and his answer.

    Mick yesterday 22:05
    jules, could you at least say whether at some more calm period you (or anyone else from the staff) will give more details on the ban, so that its understandable? cos if your tactic is to not do that, you can better say so, so i wont waste the time waiting for that and just move on
    Jules yesterday 22:09
    @Mick The mod team discussed, and we gave our reasons in the statement and don't really have more to comment or any plans to. I'm sorry if that's not the answer you were looking for.

    I responded one more time to this, with those comments.

    Mick yesterday 22:23
    @Jules well all you said so far was 'that he crossed the line after the final warning' basically. which nobody understands. how did he cross the line?
    but if you are not willing to explain that, then dont bother answering it again. im not gonna push you if you clearly dont want to disclose it
    good luck with getting the patch right

    He decided to not respond anymore.

    Once again, I am not even questioning if the ban was right anymore. But how do you expect to be a fair developer/moderator when you don’t even let someone know why they are banned, not give them a chance to explain or even just simply understand. Saying he ‘continued the behavior’ without any proof or indication that this was true makes it impossible to check whether it was not a mistake or even worse, bad intention. Don’t you think it’s important to give the specifics of the ban, just to make sure you did not make a mistake or misinterpreted something, like we all sometimes do? Or would you rather take the risk of banning someone unjustified because you don’t want to explain? Like I said, I will be the first to defend moderators in their ruling, but you need to give the other side an opportunity, instead of keeping it all for yourself.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2019
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  2. Barashnukor

    Barashnukor Member

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    Ok, dont get me wrong, i love this game... but there are only a few people who are really interested in, that this game becomes great. On my point of view, rosh and bonny are 2 of these guys, they did a lot of tutorials, for free. And these tutorials did help so much players to understand the game more and more.

    I really dont like what is happing here in the last weeks, and i dont see any future for this game, if there will not be a big change from the "owner site".

    We need more good players, who also do streaming, and show the new player strats. Without that new players will lose the fun by playing these, and dont have an chance to get better.

    And also dont get me wrong with these point, but i see a lot of low elo guys trying to stream this game, and they are most likley play so bad --> bad positioning / wrong choices when to send / wrong sends.... We need good players, wenn need good streamers, we need a good comunication base with the developers --> than we will have together a great future.

    And last but not least: I also really wanna get an answer what will now happen with the new patch, do you change something, or will it stay like now? Will you hear to your comunity, or are you doing your thing?
     
  3. s0n0fagun

    s0n0fagun Member

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    @Mick I think the moderators currently are overloaded with issues and critiques, that with all due respect, are a little bit more important than this one.

    I'm not saying the ban was justified or not, because I simply don't know both sides of the story. What I do know about Rosh, is that he was a sarcastic son of a bitch that liked to play things very much on the edge. And honestly, I loved that about him! But you can't deny he was spitting with fire ;)!
     
  4. Mick

    Mick Member

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    Well, as you can see in my conversation I asked Jules if he would explain the ban in a more calm period when he has the time to reply, and he replied that they have no intention of explaining the ban beside the first statement at all. I would not have posted here if their reason for not explaining would be a busy period.

    And I did not post here for the Roshkatul case, but to ask if they will explain the specifics of their bans to prevent accidental mistakes and give the players a chance to understand. I don't deny there could be a good reason to ban him, but if the mods keep their position you won't ever know.
     
  5. Seraphin

    Seraphin Member

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    Once again, I think you are not really fair with Dev and Moderator team. Why do they have to justify all their decisions ? Particularly, I think they already justify why Roshkatul has been banned from the forum :

    "A long-term player, Roshkatul, has been permabanned for consistent targeted harassment of developers both in and out of the game with the intention of harming the game and for repeatedly attempting to circumvent bans. He has been given multiple warnings over the months, and since his final warning a few days ago, he has continued the same behavior."

    For me that's pretty clear and personnaly, I understand perfectly this decision. To be honest, I agree to say that Rosh was really interested by the success of the game and nobody can say the contrary that he deployed a lot of energy in guides and feedback which is a really great thing for Legion TD 2.
    However, I also agree with Auto Attack to say that, when he gave his opinion or discuss about something in public, it was not always respectful toward devs and it didn't always show that his intentions were"good". Obviously, when you know the character, Rosh, you know it was not with bad intentions. However, in the contrary situation, you will obviously think it is just harssment.

    As Deutscherhawk explained in his message, they gave a final warning to Rosh to be careful with his communication and behavior. He didn't change. The punishment is right for me. If Rosh didn't understand what they meant by "change your behavior", he just had to ask as a responsible adult would do. If he didn't, it's his fault and not Auto Attack to explain what he did wrong exaclty with some examples.

    Finally, I would say that imagine with you have to justify and explain several times with several complete example a punishment in the game with 10 millions people...That would be just horrible and extremely time-consuming!

    Once again, I'm sure Rosh didn't have bad intention with his communication and his behavior. But maybe next time he will be more careful ;)
     
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  6. Mick

    Mick Member

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    Yeah, actually I agree with a lot that you say. I don't think they have to tell the reasons to everyone. But until now the reasons were not given at all, also to the player himself. If they did so, or solve it with clear communication about the specifics of the ban to the player himself, I would not have posted. I just post it because they did not disclose any specifics of the ban (how did he not change his behavior?) to anyone at all, and from the responses I got from trying to get an answer, had no intention to give any specific reason at all.

    But I just talked to DeutscherHawk on Discord and he said now they would tell the reasons to the player banned if he asks them to explain, though, so if that happens, the concern I had so far with this case would be solved. All I wanted was that the player knows the specifics of his ban, so he can understand or defend :)
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2019