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Actual state of harbingers

Discussion in 'Balance Discussion' started by Xarku, Jan 7, 2019.

?

Do gateguards and harbingers really need a nerf?

  1. Yes

  2. No

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Xarku

    Xarku Member

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    What do you think? They are strong but tricky to play. To optimize em, you can only play them in a certain spot, which means that you can only buff 2 harbingers per aura. This also means that you can place like 7 of them in late game, otherwise your build will be too high and RNG starts to appear in the focusing.

    I feel like we are nerfing every unit that a certain group of players don't like. As I said, harbingers are strong right now, but they aren't OP or something like that. You need several units to survive after 10, you need to manage splits perfectly on every wave (upper and downwards splits), you need to stick to a certain positioning or it just won't work...

    They are useful now, and they haven't been useful in a long time. Let us enjoy the harbingers.

    Edit: I might remove the poll if people vote without explaining themselves. it kinda loses its point.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
  2. Seraphin

    Seraphin Member

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    Dunno why you want to nerf this unit. This is one of the most skilled unit since it needs to be used very well to be really strong.
    I feel like you can make a unit a bit stronger when it is very well used and should be okay when it is not well used.
    That's my opinion
     
  3. Xarku

    Xarku Member

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    Yeah I see a lot of people around 1800 playing em but they are not even close to build em optimally. That denies every push potential on early and makes em super vulnerable to certain sends on mid-late game.

    My point is that if a player is spamming gateguards without sense and they aren't being punished, someone isn't doing his work.
     
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  4. Darktarant

    Darktarant Member

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    You Force People to vote to see the results kinda makes (at least me) vote without being to sure just to see what the majority thinks
     
  5. Xarku

    Xarku Member

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    Oh ok sorry you have a point there.
     
  6. Cornep

    Cornep Member

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    Harbingers aren't OP, they are good, but have several severe limitations.

    Splits are broken, both literally and powerwise, splits just work well together with harbingers thus the unit feels too strong right now.
     
  7. Akitos

    Akitos Member

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    After coming back from my break I did a Harbinger build, doing pretty much nothing but spamming those fuckers around a Whitemane, and even on the wrong wall appearently (someone said you were supposed to build them right?). Still held so insanely well I was shocked. Not sure what you're saying about them being so skillful etc. Like. I just spammed them. xD I assume in really low elo they're crazy broken. Can't tell if they need a nerf or not tho. I am too out of the game to judge on that.
     
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  8. deutscherhawk

    deutscherhawk Moderator

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    I voted yes, but feel the need to explain my position. They are extremely strong early (pre 12), and probably need a *small* nerf, as a well played gateguard/harbinger build is almost impossible to leak early, even when they should be terrible. That's a problem. Now, the biggest thing that makes them virtually unleakable early (and to a more limited extent after 12), is splitting the wave, which also allows you to draw centaurs away from them so their natural counter doesnt even, you know, counter the unit.

    So my general position: Splits need to be addressed and gateguard/harbinger probably need a small nerf. If splits aren't addressed, a bigger nerf than should otherwise be needed.
     
  9. ViccieLeaks

    ViccieLeaks Member

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    They are quite blatantly owerpowered now lol
     
  10. jitsuc4

    jitsuc4 Moderator

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    I voted no and there's a couple of reasons for that. It's not a clear cut no, but I'll clarify what I mean. First off though:
    Keep in mind, Centaur is pierce and it will hit into fortified/natural, so that's not a great counter, less so when it's into harbingers - they're quite tanky. The mere fact that it cleaves is not enough, since the max. number of targets is limited to 5 units, while also only dealing 50% of the main attack. Old centaur with no target hit limit was a decent counter to mass summons, but new one is not.

    With that said, the strength of the unit went up quite a bit with the summons surviving longer due to the new spawn location. So possibly they are overtuned stat-wise, since they were initially dying pretty quickly. Add in the ability to resummon and the damage output increases considerably.

    Placed properly, you can hold waves despite being quite a bit undervalued that way. It requires a proper split as well, yes - but not nearly as a small split as was described in the other thread (i.e. 3 pollys won't be enough). But at the same time, it denies some units from being used, since they might mess up the split or pathing you'd optimally want for your summoners.

    From what I've seen in games was mostly sending on obvious waves and messing up the sends, e.g. I've seen mimic on 7 and stuff like that (from high elo players) or the above mentioned centaur for that matter. Few builds leak early game if played properly. Most leaks happen due to greeding more workers. So just blindly nerfing the unit without testing proper sends vs. the builds doesn't seem to make sense.

    The reason I voted no was mostly because they actually enable new positioning in contrast to most other builds that follow the same pattern. I'd probably cut down the damage of the summons a bit, since they are still from times when they died instantly. I wouldn't touch the summoner, though, as there as some sends that counter it pretty well, even early on (granted they're not overbuilding).
     
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  11. Egekaer

    Egekaer Member

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    Xarku you freaking just had a game where you held 200 on 7 (mimic + dt) without any arcane units what so ever :) yes you had 800 value, but other builds can leak 7 to such a send if the units are the wrong armor/attacktype. You even said yourself that witch would not have been a better option, since it would get sniped to fast because of the split.

    I think the damage on the gateguards/harbingers are overtuned. I also think it is a problem that they have no real good counters because of the split. I agree that it is nice with some new builds, but i think there should be some risk involved in pushing many workers early.
    I don't like the new egg for the same reason, since it can push 8 workers before 5 without any risk. How many of the old builds can do that? Gateguard spam is not totally without risk, but you are still pretty safe.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
  12. Nacccho

    Nacccho Member

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    Yes, yes they are.

    Early game they are monsters, they're even strong 7 now ffs. So, if they go 5 worker start, you can pretty much make them leak a bit 2, and then ur only window is 8.

    And mid/late, even though witch/cent remedy them a bit, you can work around it, and whitemane/hero and sorcerer/sc is just insane with it.

    With 10 buffs in a row, is to be expected.
     
  13. Xarku

    Xarku Member

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    With your myth, my build was able to leak 60%+ on 7. But I guess we can send shit without testing it in custom and cry a river.
     
  14. jitsuc4

    jitsuc4 Moderator

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    Since you brought that one up, it was 200 on 7, mimic and dt. Note that mimic is an awful send (arcane armor vs. impact/pierce + pierce vs. fortified/natural) and harbinger aren't bad 7, since magic vs. fortified isn't great and arcane vs. impact/pierce is awful.

    A simple test in a custom game reveals that the build can easily leak to 200. But that's basically my point earlier, no one bothers testing and just sends what they think should be best.
     
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  15. Egekaer

    Egekaer Member

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    I know that mimic should be bad on paper. but i have tried other things. Packleader, drakes, fiends ect. nothing seem to work and as xarku said witch would get sniped. THat would be the best send on paper
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
  16. Seraphin

    Seraphin Member

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    Have you tested safety mole + hermit ? I think safety mole + mass snail could also work.
     
  17. jitsuc4

    jitsuc4 Moderator

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    @Egekaer I redid my test a couple of times and it doesn't easily leak. It can leak, but it's nowhere near as consistent as you'd imagine. But that's mostly due to how inconsistent pathing/splits are in my opinion, less so due to harbingers on w7, since they should be strong on that wave.
     
  18. Steven

    Steven Member

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    funny how i read every comment then the moderators. less ritaline, less write! gate is good unit, but have to mix it up after 12, because centaurs break them then!
     
  19. SirCloud

    SirCloud Member

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    You can literally spam them on the right and put any half assed decent T1 unit on the left and hold almost any wave.
    Can't believe how many people voted no on this poll.
     
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  20. Bluejin

    Bluejin Member

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    I'm not sure if they are totally op, at least they don't feel as oppressive as other stuff we had already (Coilers, Aps/Mps, ...)

    But on the other hand you have people rerolling for Gates. That is somewhat concerning.
     
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