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Balance Feedback for v3.0

Discussion in 'Balance Discussion' started by Jules, Jan 10, 2019 at 2:56 AM.

  1. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    Hey guys! I'm looking for balance feedback for the upcoming season 3 patch. Game balance isn't the focus of the patch, but it's always a relevant part of it.

    I read everyone's forums posts, but it would be great to hear any final thoughts. Let me know the fighters, waves, mercenaries, or aspects of the game you would like to see buffed, nerfed, or changed, and I'll do my best to incorporate them in the patch!
     
  2. deutscherhawk

    deutscherhawk Moderator

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    Don't have time for a full length reply, i'll try to get one done later today, but in the mean time these three topics are in my opinion the most pressing balance concerns, I've made some comments on each:

    Gateguards and Harbingers early game
    https://legiontd2.com/community/threads/actual-state-of-harbingers.18198/unread

    Splits lead to abuse of tank mercenaries and are too rng
    https://legiontd2.com/community/threads/gears-all-ground-up.18127/

    14 is too difficult with too few straight counters (it's bad when doppel is the best unit to have vs the wave)
    https://legiontd2.com/community/threads/wave-14-the-doom-wave.17945/
     
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  3. nimea

    nimea Member

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    Hey Jules!

    Thank you for listening :)

    I haven't played that much lately but I would probably nerf the passive of wave 14 from 25 to 20% ?

    A small hydra nerf (hp) and gateguard nerf (doggo dmg ?)

    Maybe reverting the merc spawning from 2.38?

    Kingpin: Buff its passive to 15% please :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019 at 3:18 AM
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  4. Xarku

    Xarku Member

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    I'd try a little nerf on gateguard's and harbinger's pets dps so they can only be useful if you play em the optimal way. But it is a sensitive topic since we don't want to let em unplayable as they have always been.

    And the real problem right now is the one that jitsuc4 addressed in the harbinger post:



    This needs to be solved imo.
     
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  5. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    I already have Gateguard/Harbinger and wave 14 changes in!

    It might be hard to prioritize a fix to splits, since that would be a Lisk change, and his hands are really full. I'll do my best.

    Is the fundamental problem that mercenaries don't deterministically get pulled to one side? If the Ogre always ran to the right, would it improve the problem?

    Regarding Eggsack/Hydra, how would you describe the problem(s)? Is Eggsack start too strong? If so, is it because players aren't punished enough for having their Eggsack break early, or because it's too hard to break an Eggsack on wave 2/3?
     
  6. nimea

    nimea Member

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    People don't care if the Eggsack breaks on 3, they will go 4w before 3. It's not a punishment if it breaks on 3, because the hydra will clear the wave. A 1 stack hydra seems to be too strong. You should probably nerf it or revert the changes :)

    Regarding the merc spawning, tanks should always run to the upper split and dps mercs to the other side ? That way you can split the tanks, but the dps mercs will still punish you.

    Btw: how about giving a key to someone who really tries to help and makes a huge feedback post? I think about a guy, who already helped lisk when you were on vacation and has a lot of experience.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019 at 3:41 AM
  7. Xarku

    Xarku Member

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    Yes, it is. Sometimes you get 50%/50% split, but suddenly you can get a 90%/10% split and that means that you can only watch how your effective value decreases by hundreds. That isn't fun and you can't build to prevent it. Same with pulling sends, it should be consistent so builder and sender can play around it. A lot of games I don't know if i should send centaur cos it is a coin flip which decides where it will go.

    And about the Egg, you can place a 275g unit that becomes a 400g one in the same round while holding the wave... Sounds a bit broken to me. You can even place an egg on 9 if you expect a 10 send and it will tank hours before your ranged dps units.
     
  8. Cornep

    Cornep Member

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    Hey Jules!

    Glad to see you back on the forums :)

    I have made a few threads, hawk linked some, but im going to ignore his post ;)

    Thread discussing splits, possible solutions to the absurd value they produce with t1 currently
    https://legiontd2.com/community/threads/gears-all-ground-up.18127/

    If/when splits become balanced and not a must use or lose type thing, my prediction for the next "must do" thing and easy fix.
    https://legiontd2.com/community/threads/building-at-wave-spawn-needs-fixing.18167/

    Wave 14 is obnoxius right now, 90% of games you go 14 which feels stale and boring. Big thread on the topic:
    https://legiontd2.com/community/threads/wave-14-the-doom-wave.17945/

    Auras causing headaches for all, maybe changing from uniform design as suggested would bring more variety.
    https://legiontd2.com/community/threads/auras-the-hidden-problem.17958/

    Centaur needs to be reworked. Right now the best send vs hades is not centaur even with piercing, so why keep centaur piercing where it counters arcane that is already countered by almost everything? Make centaur magic OR change centaur damage to exponentially scale inversely against hp pool. As in the smaller the HP pool is, the more damage centaur does.

    Magic dps mercenary is needed. This might not be obvious, as there is shaman and 4e, but shaman is a buff unit also can be counted as an aura. 4e is anti massive tank and is waste of mythium if the person has more in melee or other things than haven, whitemane and golem. Drake is too small and is killed with tiny bit AoE so it doesn't do the job post 9.

    Eggsack hydra is too strong statwise. I dont have the math on me, but on my discord the math was done by @deutscherhawk and @Roshkatul that pointed out that double stack hydra is already better than other units leading to crazy shit like people just massing hydras. Also in races / with backline dps the unit has like double or triple hp compared to other tanks which is broken.

    Splits have several problems, and they are discussed in the thread, but it boils down to 3 points in my opinion:
    1. Inconsistency. Both wave and mercenaries with same setups can go wildly differently. Might as well coin flip every wave to see if you hold or leak.
    2. No counter.
    3. Staggering value of T1 base units
    Solution: Make mimic squishier and much higher movement speed. balanced t1 base unit destroyer and only slight tuning of numbers so wont take a lot of time from Lisk.

    Using the point 3. as a bridge, T1 and T2 masses have to get increased penalties. It is ridiculous how good something like 20 aquas or 20 bazookas is for holding. It shouldnt be that massing 45-50g units in late game is the best choice. Increase supply cost or something. It should be rewarded for not splurging all of your supply.
     
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  9. nimea

    nimea Member

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    I would like to see a nuke merc with a really high cooldown!

    Imagine something like 200 myth, 200 splash damage to everything which gives units that got hit a little buff (hp regen).
     
  10. Bluejin

    Bluejin Member

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    you would just swap on which side you build depending on your weaknesses. It might be better if it always "gravitates" to the side where you build your main stuff I'd say.
     
  11. nimea

    nimea Member

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    So the mercs will go the side with the most value?
     
  12. Bonny

    Bonny Member

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    I heavily dislike this idea! Stuff like this will lead to usuelles Splitting and overvaluing all Waves.

    Tbo i like the Existing Splitting „rules“, but they Need to be 100% consistant.

    If u all dont like it Maybe a pattern is a good deal. For example one Unit goes left the next right, depending the Order u send them?
     
  13. Bluejin

    Bluejin Member

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    yeah, something like that might work, like if you build symmetrical around the middle, the mercs spawn in the middle, if you build all your shit to the left and only a few T1 to the right, mercs spawn towards the left, and so on.

    At least that would make it way harder to pull mercs into split I assume.
     
  14. nimea

    nimea Member

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    there need to be some rng in the game. Basically all good games have rng which makes them interesting and replayable
     
  15. Bonny

    Bonny Member

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    But if all Units go to your Main Building its 0 Rng
     
  16. Bluejin

    Bluejin Member

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    I have no big problem with the current splits either, but in a way Cornep is partially right if he complains that tanks just being lured to split and not tanking is bullshit. And with that approach you could at least still split the wave, just no longer the sends.

    Another thing I proposed half a year ago was to let the sender decide where the merc will spawn. But that would make sending a tad more complicated.

    And your idea is not that different, the only difference is that, in the worst case, you "pay" 20 mythium to decide where the sends go, and that you're just fucked if you need to send a ram and only have 320 myth and it would spawn on the wrong side.

    Edit @Bonny I was only talking about the Mercenaries, the wave itself would not be changed.
     
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  17. Mick

    Mick Member

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    I don't really favor set rules for splits, because then the split-tactic will become even more dominant. I would rather see a different way to make random splits less dominant, such as a merc who is a strong 'split killer', so the difference between many and few units to the split is less big. Also favoring other ways of building than split build would be a solution (for example, make it possible to do wall building).

    I would also like to see a revision of hydra. The new design has too many flaws. Most notably 2things. 1. That there is nothing left of the 'risk' you have to take early wave in building it, with the possibility to leak and feed ur enemies. 2. that it can delay super hard on race levels, because you have to kill an egg, then a hydra, then small hydras. I agree in theory it was a nice way to try this with hydra, but spawning a hydra is actually next to useless for doing some extra holding (since it usually gets focused when everything is dead), so making the build more viable against 'fast resends' does not work. All it does is delay like crazy on races.
     
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  18. deutscherhawk

    deutscherhawk Moderator

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    Jules, an easy temporary solution to early split abuse would be to attach an ability similar to maccabeus to fiend or mimic with either a movement speed or attack speed buff for killing a unit with less than 225 hp (chosen so it doesnt proc on a t2) or less than 30 value. Since that ability is already in the game it shouldn't take too much effort to implement onto another merc until a long term solution can be found. (I am personally a fan of changing mimic to have the ability and reduce its cost to 100 so its easier to get early--specifically for w6 to prevent 75 value of pollywog removing 66% of the wave)

    Credit to @Roshkatul for the idea.
     
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  19. Bonny

    Bonny Member

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    I know u are, but the Problem i See there is that for ex. 2 ram will bully a kingpin with a 100% Chance. Stuff like this Scares me
     
  20. Bluejin

    Bluejin Member

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    Depends on your point of view. If you're the sender, that's exactly what you want them to do, and seeing them bash a couple Pollies for half an hour feels bad. If you're the builder, it's the opposite way around. That's what makes that whole thing hard to solve, because no matter what you do, someone's gonna get the short end of the stick.

    That said, if you send stuff like Hermit, Mole, Pack, etc, they will always perform the task they were designed to do (if you exclude the occasional snipe). It seems to me that only tanks and on-hit mercenaries like 4eye/ogre have a tendency to be very hit-or-miss.
     
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