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Brute Slow on King

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Crazy, Jul 11, 2018 at 3:35 AM.

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  1. Crazy

    Crazy Member

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    I am thinking that it is somewhat gamebreaking to have brutes still slow the King... I mean: I cannt see the point of giving one of the strongest mercs the power to punish you even harder if it reaches the king. Sometimes you run into the problem of multiple brutes attacking the king and them not being attacked. They slow down the kings attack speed by 10%, they delay his aoe and give you so much more value than e.g.240 myth

    I would therefore like to hear your opinion on the case and whether or wheter not you like that mechanic
     
  2. foliesseer

    foliesseer Member

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    Doesn't this belong to Balance Discussion? :p.

    Also, even with 4 brutes at the King, shouldn't their ability be mostly reduced by the Kings CC reduction ability? And the King also has a low attack speed, so it feels like he isn't effected all that much by the attack speed reduction. And it's only really an issue if there are 4 brutes able to reach the king and not be focused by the king, which also means that you and your ally probably messed up really hard there...

    I don't know, maybe I'm completely wrong here since I've had this scenario happen once to me this season but to me it sounds like for brutes to be opressive to the king, you'd need multiple brutes to be leaked, leaked many other creeps in king killing range, also you and your ally didn't fully hold the their send or has little to defend the king, and even then the king has built-in cc reduction and an already low attack speed. So again, I don't know :p
     
  3. jitsuc4

    jitsuc4 Member

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    To keep in mind:

    Maul - Each attack slows attack speed by 10% (2% against the king), stacking up to 9 times

    (note the stacking is not additive, but multiplicative)
     
  4. Crazy

    Crazy Member

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    well so even worse than 10% xD
     
  5. Crazy

    Crazy Member

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    Well i dont see why they would slow the kings attackspeed.. that is not a ability a 60 myth merc should have imo
     
  6. jitsuc4

    jitsuc4 Member

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    If there's more than 5 stacks on the king, yes. One brute wont get that high, multiple will. And if the king doesn't kill the brutes, which I think might occur in later waves since the wave has higher damage output. Not sure if the king is currently factoring in its own dps loss due to the slow effect (@Lisk). If it doesn't, that might be something worth implementing.

    But to actually have brutes survive on later waves to hit the king, multiple brutes even, the effect the ability has might only effect a couple of cases where the slow is game deciding. In most cases, if that many creeps hit the king, I think it's fine. But the king probably should consider its own dps loss in those cases as well.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018 at 8:54 AM
  7. Crazy

    Crazy Member

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    well every brute basically increases the damage of all leaks, once it reaches the king it becomes a mini packleader since it slows the king down, which in my opinion is too strong of an effect for a 60 myth lane suppression unit
     
  8. foliesseer

    foliesseer Member

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    I think this conversation will just be two people repeating the same thing over and over until we actually know what kind of impact Brute has when he reaches the king, and how 4 brutes compare to a Pack Leader for example. I'm not going to do any testing right now (It's 01:31 for me right now, so I'm going to bed) but I will do some testing and calculations tomorrow to see what a difference the ability makes. I'm pretty sure myself that it's pretty negligible because of the King's CC reduction and the reduction from 10% to 2% on the King but I guess I'll see tomorrow (today? Whatever).
     
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  9. jitsuc4

    jitsuc4 Member

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    Base attack speed of king is 0.9
    (stacks are just the brutes, no other creeps at the king)
    - 1 brute stacks up to 2-3 on the king -> remaining attack speed ~96-94% -> 0.86-0.84 attacks per second
    - 2 up to 5-6 on the king -> ~90-88% -> 0.81-0.79
    - 3 up to 7-9 -> ~86-83% -> 0.78-0.75
    - 4 up to 9 pretty consistently until one dies -> ~83% -> 0.75

    The aoe needs 5 charges and king gets +1 per attack. So he charges up one aoe after ~5.56 s and ~6.67 s worst case. After that the brutes die to the aoe (in later waves). Since waves have somewhat close to 1 attacks per second and some under, it's basically one extra attack from all creeps alive at the king.

    (note i truncated them all so less numbers :p)

    Damage of king and wave depends on wave obviously. I just tested w16 to get an idea of how brutes vs 1 pack impacts the damage dealt. King has 7699 hp in a solo custom game on w16.

    w16 base dmg: ~17 s and deal damage equivalent to 2 king heals and another 6462 (~21.8k)
    3 brutes (180 myth): ~18 s and deal 2 king heals and another 5613. (~21k)
    4 brutes (240 myth): ~18 s and deal 3 king heals and another 210. (~23.3k)
    1 pack (160 myth): ~18 s and deal 3 king heals and another 634. (~23.7k)

    (mercs impacts pathing as well, so the wave hits the king in a different pattern, might not influence damage, would need a lot more samples, feel free to do that :p)

    Yes, pack has a big influence on swarm waves, yes brutes die to first aoe and thusly don't get attacked at all, but pack gets focused before first aoe and by that dies quicker than the brutes, but also soaks up two hits.

    You can test other waves and post your results as well. But keep in mind, this is also the full wave hitting the king (which benefits both cases tbf). I still think brutes are pretty much fine vs. the king. Considering it's kinda rare that they hit the king in the first place. I'd argue that breaking the lane is the bigger factor on deciding sends over what deals more damage to the king.

    So, while brutes scale the damage of the full wave, I definitely wouldn't consider this "somewhat gamebreaking" at this point. It might be somewhat strong in certain situations, but by running a couple of customs I really don't see them as too strong.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2018 at 12:31 AM
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  10. Themryon

    Themryon Member

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    @jitsuc4 Take also your own earlier note into account: "(note the stacking is not additive, but multiplicative)"

    This means that for example a 5stack is not 10% slower, but 9.6%slower (attack speed from 0.9 -> 0.814)
     
  11. jitsuc4

    jitsuc4 Member

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    I know, that's why I added I truncated the numbers (0.81 vs. 0.814), assuming everyone can just get the exact numbers on their own, but for completeness sake I'll add this:

    Stacks
    1 - 0.98% -> 0.882 attacks per second
    2 - 0.9604% -> 0.86436 attacks per second
    3 - 0.941192% -> 0.8470728 attacks per second
    4 - 0.92236816% -> 0.830131344 attacks per second
    5 - 0.9039207968% -> 0.81352871712 attacks per second
    6 - 0.885842380864% -> 0.7972581427776 attacks per second
    7 - 0.86812553324672% -> 0.781312979922048 attacks per second
    8 - 0.8507630225817856% -> 0.76568672032360704 attacks per second
    9 - 0.833747762130149888% -> 0.7503729859171348992 attacks per second

    It's kinda close to additive in the king scenario, differences are bigger when you take the 10% against units.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2018 at 1:26 AM