Cornep's Guides: Mech with positioning Magic

Discussion in 'Strategy Guides' started by Cornep, Sep 23, 2017.

  1. Cornep

    Cornep Moderator

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    Hey there!

    This guide will have 2 very solid build guides, with very detailed starts that detail the base build, as in what you build without saved during 1-6, w10 value/unit options, and the final form of the build, and what the build relies on to hold specific waves. Also what units to build where, when you suspect a save for a wave.

    First off: Both builds use a very similar positioning, but open with different units, and end up very similar late game builds for VERY strong late game 13+ wave holds.

    There are 2 main things in these builds, DPS side, and Tank side. With Mech, Tank side includes peewee/veteran, pyro and berserker/fatalizer. DPS side includes, Zeus, aps/mps, Millenium. Tempest pref rightside, depends on your variation.

    From the picture below, you can see the entire wave being on the right side, allowing dps to live for days, allowing focus fire and all that good stuff.

    Positioning mech.png

    This picture shows roughly the build you should have late game, small differences will happen based on if they save for something, or if you have to alter the base build to cover a wave.

    Pyro final form.png

    The positioning offers MASSIVELY better targetting, as dps side is most of the wave at maximum range, forcing the dps units to attack a single unit, thus maximizing value, enabling holding with much lower value. Also very common to see ranged sends like 4e, shaman or hermit killed super early, making sends less dangerous.

    You have to look at the "final" positioning picture when placing towers after pyro, the positioning has zeus's in the corner, as they have highest range out of anything, then aps /MPS slots, and then a 45 degree angle of milleniums. Zeus's are the furthest away also for their survival, mps/aps are a bit tanky, but you want them to live. Milleniums you want to live, but they only get targetted after the right side. This build has 99% of the lanes damage within APS/MPS.

    Build 1: Risky pyro start

    A greedy build, Punished hard with snail on 1.

    The Pros: High income build, very good hold on 2-5, VERY strong late game, Good at covering usually hard waves like 13-15 or 17-20
    The Cons: Risky 1 ( most likely only build to have a risky 1, so very non-meta wave to get sends on), High wave 10 hold value.

    The right side is tanks ( read veterans and peewees), Pyros ( max 2, 1 before 10 on pyro start, only after 10 with zeus opening) also if desperate need of piercing for anti 10 or 16, make it to right side like a pyro.

    Wave 1: 3x peewee and 1 Bazooka. Follow the positioning in the added picture. This relies on 1 peewee on the left that is half a space higher than right side, to pull part of the wave to it and allowing 100% clear without snail.

    Pyro W1.png

    Wave 2: Sell 2x peewee, you usually only need to sell 1, but by selling 2x you will gain extra 23-29g, which allow a lot faster workers on waves 2 and 3, leading to gold advantage later. BUY PYRO.

    pyro w2.png

    Wave 5: Usually you want to make a bazooka here, you will NOT need it to hold, unless you get a dino. Positioning is key, if you have followed the pictures exactly, the lowest level bazooka will not join the fight, but when it is a zeus, the range is not an issue later on. IF you are very yolo, and have 100g left over after Wave 4, with 4 workers, you can go 5th worker. HOWEVER, this build will leak wave 6, guaranteed, if you can get 3x bazooka for wave 6, you can minimize leaks and get fed for late game. Please, Do not do this unless you know your team is not in any danger on 6, or even 7.

    pyro w5.png

    Wave 6: You have a lot of choices here, getting a zeus ( upgrade the furthest one away from the right side so bazookas die before zeus), is the best, you won't leak to anything below a mimic. if you somehow are very low on gold, triple bazooka can hold, usually does, 4x total bazooka won't leak.

    w6 Pyro start.png

    Wave 7: You can hold low send with 620-650 value, good time for workers.

    Wave 8: usually good time to have 1 or 2 veterans to tank at this point, 800ish value holds a dino.

    Wave 10: depending on sends, 1250+ is recommended, including 2 veterans, 0-2 peewees, pyro on tank side, on dps side, rest of the value, usually i have either 4x zeus and some zookas, 3x bazookas and a millenium or similar. I rarely have MPS yet. Berserker and millenium are very good here.

    Wave 11: Pushing time, 1350 holds this wave unless a save, or you might leak 1-2, which gives mythium time. If there is a send coming here ( you can count on it if your team has a cross) PYROS destroy 11.

    Wave 12: if you expect a hard time holding here, make a second pyro if you expect a game ending save here, make 3 pyros, if 13 or 14, NO second or third pyro.

    Wave 13: mass zeus if you expect a send here.

    Wave 14: If your team has a lot of zeus, flowers, violets, aquas or firearchers, expect a send here, and MAKE MILLENIUMS. start them at 11. do not mass zeus, you will get destroyed.

    Wave 15: Milleniums baby, also zeus. Also a good idea to make sure your right side has at least 6 units packed at this point, 2,8k value holds most big sends due to the positioning.

    Wave 16: your hardest wave, let your team know they should build much piercing if you expect a send here. Emergency fatalizer after 15 will help you hold. The only wave you actually need proper value to hold after 10 with this build.

    Waves 17-21: Laugh as you can't leak these. Keep calm and make them milleniums/doomsdays.

    Build 2: Zeus Opening

    The build is a LOT safer than the pyro opening, as you won't leak 1 and feed the enemy. My go-to build when playing against people who know you like the pyro opening.

    The Pros: Safer, easier wave 10 hold, safer on wave 6
    The Cons: Less Income, not that safe on 4 and 5.

    The Positioning is the same, same mechanics are used for the same reasons. The initial positioning is based on Zeus's max range and the peewee buying good amount of time on the other side.

    Wave 1: pic included, make 1 zeus and peewee, worker from the wave gold. You want to get snail or this build falls behind. a bit.

    Zeus w1.png

    Wave 2: Worker when you have gold.

    Wave 3: make a bazooka and peewee and you will hold anything the enemy can send

    Wave 4: Get a second Zeus and you'll hold brutes and shit. If you can't afford a zeus, go for double bazooka!

    Wave 5: Third worker and peewees or bazooka if gold

    Wave 6: 4th worker, keep adding them veterans, bazookas zeus.

    Wave 7: 600-700 value

    Wave 8: 800ish value

    Wave 9: you want to have 900+ here, is dinos and drakes are normal send, go for 1k value.

    Wave 10: to hold this, an APS/MPS is not the worst to tank a bit, millenium a lot better here than on pyro opening. For other waves, follow pyro guidelines. 1200 value minimum.

    The values hold normal income sends, incomer sends and saves are out of the ordinary.

    Build 3: Berserker opening


    The build is a LOT safer than the pyro opening, as you won't leak 1 and feed the enemy. My go-to build when playing against people who know you like the pyro opening.

    The Pros: Safer, easiest wave 10 hold
    The Cons: Less Income, but the safest out of all the 3 build.

    The Positioning is the same, same mechanics are used for the same reasons. The initial positioning is based on Zeus's max range.

    Wave 1: Make a berserker, like you would a Pyro in the initial guide.

    Wave 2: Worker when you have gold.

    Wave 3: make a bazooka

    Wave 4: Get a Zeus, this will hold all sends with decent targetting.

    Wave 5: Third worker and some peewees

    Wave 6: 4th worker, peewees/bazooka depending on exact amount of gold.

    Wave 7: 600-700 value and 5th worker

    Wave 8: 800ish value Make APS here, also during the round, 6th worker

    Wave 9: you want to have 900+ here, if you are fed and have 6 workers, you can save some gold and go for fatalizer for wave 10. Millenium is also good here.

    Wave 10: to hold this, an APS/MPS is not the worst to tank a bit, millenium a lot better here than on pyro opening. For other waves, follow pyro guidelines. 1200 value usually holds, depends on the sends.

    The values hold normal income sends, incomer sends and saves are out of the ordinary.

    Try to have at least 1 fatalizer by wave 15, i usually go 1 or 2, depending what the enemy does.


    TLDR: As massing piercing is popular right now, this build offers a VERY good hold for anti-piercing waves which helps your team. Extremely strong on 11,13,14,15,20. So on the meta waves.

    If you have any questions, hit me up! I will be happy to answer any :)

    Cornep
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2017
    xanarot, Lisk, Jules and 5 others like this.
  2. Phoder

    Phoder Member

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    Is the second build only going to plan if the enemies are sending for income? I always fall short in gold and can't buy the second zeus on w4.
     
  3. Cornep

    Cornep Moderator

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    You should get it in most cases, if you can't get a zeus, go double bazooka to block the birds from your Zeus.
     
  4. Phoder

    Phoder Member

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    Okay I used it in a real match for the first time now and did some major stomping, thank you :D
     
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  5. Finite Afroo

    Finite Afroo Member

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    Appreciate this guide @Cornep, been looking for a proper way to do mech. I like the legion but has always failed to figure out how to hold certain waves with them and had a hard time figuring out how to do the pyro opening so i myself is looking forward to try this!

    EDIT: just one question, do you only go fatalizer if expecting a send on 12? i just feel like everyone else i see play mech gets fatalizer's?
     
  6. Rozwel

    Rozwel Member

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    i am playing without fatalizer almost every mech's game and as i saw 1 of 3/4 mech's players are doing the same thing. Is it good idea? I don't know, but it works pretty well(fro me).

    This guide is great and i am changing a bit mine becouse your final placements are much better than mine :)
     
  7. Cornep

    Cornep Moderator

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    Hey, glad to help :) There is more ways to go pyro, most of them are safer, but the pyro guide here is a greedy one :)

    If i expect a send on 12, i get more pyros. 3 pyros can not leak on 12. Pyros are not super strong on 13, so make sure you look at your team, and if there is a ton of piercing they shouldnt go 12, if there is a ton of impact, they should go 12. I will edit this part in the guide as well.


    So Fatalizer is a bit tricky. The unit itself is VERY good. But it can not be the only melee unit, and in Mech, it ends up being the only Melee unit, unless you position it very far back and it arrives at the ranged units when the wave does, which requires a lot of testing to get it to happen most of the time.
     
  8. xanarot

    xanarot Member

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    @Cornep . APS alone also holds 1 typically, even with a snail. Following you can worker+1 bazooka, as aps+bazooka typically holds W2. For W3 and onward, you then move into 2nd bazooka/zeus (not sure if it was 2nd bazooka then zeus, or zeus followed by bazooka).

    Basically means you build the lower left corner first, and add the tank group later. Removes the risk of not holding the first few waves, but still allows a hard early push and easy hold. Focus is to abuse the APS's tankyness early on, by having the bazooka/zeus behind it, but at the same time already have the aura so it'll do (on paper at least) more dps than most tanks can dish out.

    Once your APS can no longer tank properly, you move into the rest of the vets/pyro/milennium.
     
  9. Cornep

    Cornep Moderator

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    @xanarot I know the APS holds, i'm still testing it, the problem is, with that build you wont have berserker OR pyro or 2x zeus to hold 4 and you get megafucked with a dino/brute send there, and you have 0 chance of building anything to counter it if you start with an APS.
     
  10. xanarot

    xanarot Member

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    Gotta admit, saw it in action on you this evening.. It does work, and quite a bit better than expected.

    Was like 200-ish value, just pyro and tank? But allowed straight to go for 4-5 workers, which means a lot income (and gold) in the long run. Definitly worth it.
     
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  11. Cornep

    Cornep Moderator

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    Yeah, 4 workers is guaranteed before wave 5 with safe holding.

    With slight feed on enemy leaks OR big sends on 2-4 you can get 5 workers before 5 and get VERY, VERY fed and practically not be able to leak for the rest of the game.
     
  12. Cornep

    Cornep Moderator

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    This guide will be temporarily out of date. I need to in-depth test everything to see how the changes change thing, but late game is a ton weaker regardless.

    Feel free to use the guide for now, but it will not perform as well as it used to.
     
  13. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    I'll default to you as the Mech expect, but I think Mech's late game is comparable, if not stronger.

    Changes this patch:
    • Berserker/Fatalizer - stronger against 13, 15, 19, 20, 21, weaker against 14, 16, 17
    • Millennium/Doomsday Machine - stronger against 13, 14, 17, 20, weaker against 15, 16, 18, 19
    Against 20, I'd say Mech (Doomsday Machine + APS/MPS) = Forsaken (Hades + T1 spam) > Grove (Canopies) > Element (Fenix)

    Against 21, I'd say Mech (Doomsday Machine + APS/MPS) > Element (Fenix) > Grove > Forsaken

    I know you think Fenix is strong, and it is, but Doomsday Machine + APS/MPS is arguably stronger late game. I'd say 16 is Mech's only weakness late game right now. On paper, it remains the best late game legion, and the data backs that up.
     
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  14. Cornep

    Cornep Moderator

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    Yes, Mech remains extremely strong on 20, even stronger than it used to be.

    However the meta waves of 16,17,19 are a LOT harder with milleniums having impact. I don't think the better wave 20 really balances the other losses as impact is very weak 15-19.

    The build still works, just need to get some berserkers and fatalizers in the other side, which reduces the amount of milleniums on the other side. I'm not 100% sure yet what the optimal number is, but i think it will be just 1 with the pyro, max 2 against a big 16 send. I tried 3 in one game, and barely held 19 with 0 sends, so that was clearly too much. I'll be testing the 1 fatalizer vs 2 fatalizer today. Maybe even completely drop the pyro from start and change it to berserker.
     
  15. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    If it helps, Millennium and Doomsday Machine are both better on 17 now. +15% damage compared to before. :)
     
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  16. Cornep

    Cornep Moderator

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    Yes, millenium indeed is good on 17 now, but let's be honest, how often do you see 17 sends? I think i've seen a 17 save once on 20 games by the enemy side. I feel like even fenixes hold so well there even when they shouldnt'.

    But the changes aren't a disaster, i just need to modify a little bit on the guide section, add some suggestions and modify some, as milleniums can't be massed anymore blindly.
     
  17. Cornep

    Cornep Moderator

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    The guide is updated for the millenium and berserker changes.

    Also added a berserker opening, not much different, but opens a more stable and safer build that the others, just not that greedy.
     
  18. Rozwel

    Rozwel Member

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    If someone like pyro open it's good to get berserker before 10(berserker is very good against 8). I always build him where the second pyro should stay.
    I ve played about 8 games with this strat so there could be better strats with berserker, but when my build leak it's 1st wave, 10th wave (rare need 1300 value), and the game ending send so if you want to try it's good.
     
  19. Cornep

    Cornep Moderator

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    Yes, Berserker is very good on 10, so is millenium now.
     
  20. Darksmoke

    Darksmoke Member

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    cornep i love u :oops:
     
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