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Current Meta (Wave 15)

Discussion in 'Balance Discussion' started by jqob, Jun 11, 2018.

  1. jqob

    jqob Member

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    I remember a couple months ago the meta was all about tier 2. the one who rolled most t2 would have a big advantage. When pyro, ranger and green devil were super strong. Now they're all more or less trash. Aqua is the only one that remained strong.

    Now the meta is about who rolls the most tier 6 units - millenium, lod, firelord, bunk. Notice how 3 of those are really good on 15. That's the reason for this, wave 15 has become too important, because leaking the mini boss MAKES SO MUCH DIFFERENCE. Before the w15 change you could leak a few quadrapusses and it wasn't a big deal, but now that miniboss gets focused last, leaking it damages your king so much you can't afford it.

    Reverting the change and making miniboss spawn in front again would bring more viability for mastermind imo. Why can't it be the same as wave 5. You also don't want to leak the scorpion, so it's good it gets focused first...
     
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  2. Cornep

    Cornep Moderator

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    Well, 15 is the anti 5. On wave 5 miniboss is 100% guaranteed to get focused and killed no matter what you send, on 15 mini boss survives last unless you have decided to mass 90% of your value in deepcoilers
     
  3. foliesseer

    foliesseer Member

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    I don't get the problem.
    'Previous' meta: 1 T1, 3 T2-T3 and an Arcane tank for 14-15
    Current meta: 1 T1, 2-3 T2-T4 and 2-3 T5-T6. That seems alot more balanced than people spamming Pyros and Honeyflowers.

    I personally really like it that 15 is a wave you have to pick your MM roll around, it makes it feel more like it's an actual mini-boss rather than just another wave. I think the problem that you are explaining, people that pick alot of T6 units like LoD and Firelord, is an issue on how people currently pick their MM rolls. Whenever I pick my roll, I ask myself "How do I hold 10? Oh, a Daphne, let me pick her.", "11 and 12? Mudman and Aqua Spirit will help me here.", "13? Hmm, maybe instead of Daphne I should pick Berserker", et cetera. I look at waves 10-19 and see what I need there. T6 units excel at some of these waves. Just picking LoD pretty much carries you through 14 and 15 if you have a bad setup there. Firelord is good 13, decent 15 and 16 and good on 18 again. Bunker carries you through 11, 12, is not so good but viable on 14, 15 and 16, really good 17, bad 18, decent 19, et cetera.

    Now lets compare this to waves 1-9. What waves are scary? Only 3 to be honest, because if you build too "tall" you will leak to a brute. Besides 3, you need an arcane unit on 7 and 8 too, which can also substitute for 14 and 15. And... that's pretty much it :p.

    I think it would help alot if 5 was stronger so you would be forced to pick something that would be decent there. That would mean you need more T2's or T3's, but you still need late-game units for all waves beyond wave 10. Just an idea :D.
     
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  4. jqob

    jqob Member

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    You don't get the problem. T6 being so strong in this meta makes rng more important. There are 4 T6 units currently, out of 27 total units you can get. That's 14.8% chance that you will roll a t6 unit (a little bit higher due to some variations being impossible like 4 t1 etc.). So if you get no t6 units (very likely to happen) and the enemy gets like 2 of them (best case scenario you roll Bunk + Millenium so you are unbreakable at any point in late game), you are pretty much determined to lose the game unless the opponent makes some enormous mistakes early game.
     
  5. foliesseer

    foliesseer Member

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    This is not how math works...
    You have 10 rolls. You are correct that there is a 14,8% chance to roll a T6 unit, or 85,2% to not roll a T6 unit. But this is only accounting the first roll. The second roll there is a 85,2×(22/26) or 85,2×84,6 == 72,1% chance to not roll a T6 unit in your second roll. And for your third roll, it will be 85,2×84,6×(21/25) or 85,2×84,6×84 == 60,5% to not roll a T6 in your third roll. If you repeat this 10 times, you will find out that there is a 13,6% chance to not roll a T6 unit in any of your 10 rolls. So in 86,4% of your games, you will have at least 1 T6 unit. Or simpler said, each 10 games you will have a T6 unit in 8 to 9 rolls, depending on your luck.

    So it's actually very unlikely to happen that you roll no T6 units. Of course, it can also happen that you roll 3 T6 units in 3 games in a row. It's all a dice roll.

    If the enemy has 2 T6 units then he is weaker during the early game. Of course, if they have Grarl then that doesn't count but in general is it the rule that the more expensive units the opponent(s) have, the weaker they are in the early game. You should try to take advantage of this by saving early and hard in the early-game so your opponent can't push workers and will struggle to actually purchase the T6 units when mid- to lategame starts.
     
  6. jqob

    jqob Member

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    ye no ur right. i had just woken up when i wrote, i wasnt thinking about all 10 rolls, so yeh ur actually likely to roll a t6. but still there are times when u get no t6 or get multiple. And even if you roll one T6 mostly it's not even enough, you kinda need at least 2. and early game isn't a problem, specially when u start with a t5 like antler or berserker you can build around them easily. or with fire ele you can skip wave 8 to build a bunk on 9 etc. u rly don't need many low cost fighters to go through early game imo
     
  7. foliesseer

    foliesseer Member

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    Sorry, but I find your post a bit odd :p. I assume your second part is purely about the early game:
    I mean, the only actual viable T5 starts are Berserker and Nightmare. Antler leaks 90% of the time on 3 if you don't have the right early arcane setup and Disciple leaks every single time. And the reason why people start Nightmare on Forsaken is that the unit is too expensive to build during waves 1-7.
    That requires you to
    1. Get a send on 7,
    2. Not build workers on 8
    3. Actually be strong enough to hold a resend on 8

    Most skips like these just don't work out. The only viable way to build big units early into the game is Grarl, and that's pretty much it.
    You are right. But I was talking about covering all waves during 1-10 in general, not to get through the game. Who do you think holds early game sends better: Player A with a T1, two T2's, a T4, T5 and a T6; or Player B with a T1, three T2's, a T4 and a T6? And before you answer "well that matters on what units the player has!", well I'm talking about who will hold better on average. I would say player B since he has more early game units to place down to cover his weaknesses.

    Also, let me add to this that you don't need a T6 to win the game. Sure, Banana Bunk is really strong on 11, 12 and 17 but you don't need to pick it to hold these waves. And I like it that you can sometimes roll many low-cost units so you are given the incentive to build your plan around the early game and think about how you are going to win the lategame. However I do agree that there are a few issues with being able to not roll a T5 or a T6 unit, and that is why I suggested a weight system to give a better chance to have at least a unit of each individual tier a while back. I just have different reasons for that :p.
     
  8. jqob

    jqob Member

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    Just fyi antler is one of the strongest starts now. might be my favorite atm. holds brute on 3 easily with a wileshroom + t1, or gargoyles/pewees or aquas and holds 4 even easier... also decent 5 and strong on 6.

    And with aquas you don't need anything that you mentioned.. all you need is about 700 value and keep like 90g for 9. unless your guy saved very long and you have natural tanks..
     
  9. Nacccho

    Nacccho Member

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    While i think the rationale behind the boss spawning behind is completely flawed, i like the effect that a strong 15 has on the meta.
    Cause it gives much more value to magic damage and units Phoenix, Pollywag, and make the shitshow that bazooka is at the moment at least kinda usefull when you have nothing else.
    With that said, 17 needs to be buffed, because before when you hard built against 15 with lods or phoenix for example, you would most likely get really punished 17.
    But its almost impossible to get a decent re-send on 17 to make pretty much any build leak, specially if you also have grarl, doomsday, aqua...

    I'd say if doomsdays were fixed and 17 buffed, wave structure and the windows for sends would be pretty damn well rounded.