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Deathcaps and you

Discussion in 'Balance Discussion' started by Cornep, Dec 2, 2018.

  1. Cornep

    Cornep Member

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    Hello fellow Legionaries,

    Deathcap is a funny unit.

    Either it is a monster, or it will kill you and your king.

    Why is this?

    AoE in any form is bad when you have a little of it, because 0 focus fire and mole + hermit negating the effect.

    AoE is brutal when you have enough to outweigh the effects of above mentioned points. This means say, you have enough AoE to burn 40% of the entire waves HP for the price of killing 20% from single target units. When you combine this with some ST units you will have the wave in a puddle of poisoned blood to mop up.

    Why does Deathcap outperform other forms of AoE so much?
    • Deathcap becomes stronger every wave, and outscales hermit&more very quickly.
    • Deathcap does have weak waves, 11/15/19, but if you have some form of damage to blow up the tanks the flowers will melt the wave away extremely effectively.
    • Honestly the only weak wave is 14, which even then can be very easily coordinates around and you will still melt a big portion of the waves HP.
    • Most? of the games are decided in 16-19 range when the gold differences have had enough time to manifest and 2x workers kicks in. This is the part where you have enough dcaps to ignore anything that comes your way AND the waves pack really tight for AoE glory.
    • Other AoE units are very mild when compared to dcap. Bananas do VERY little in comparison, especially when looking at the cost, same with pyro which is essentially 100-0'd by mole/hermit no matter how many you make, King Claw AoE is for damage reduction and not for damage output, leviathan is just unfocused damage and is not even in the same ballpark.
    So, why is this a problem you might ask.
    • For example Wave 18, which has partial magic damage to kill the deathcaps and natural armor, is in a slight disadvantage against the flowers, but even 25-35% in dcaps can allow you to easily hold 800 or so mythium. Try the same with any other unit, even azeria which is the highest dps magic unit for the wave, and you will not be even in the same country for holding potential.
    • Wave 16,17 are both very small models that pack tightly, making them ideal to be burned down by the noxious smells. Nothing really can be sent that will prevent this. If you go 2-3 four eyes for these waves there is still a big chance that the 4e will be hitting the random veteran while dcaps have killed the wave.
    • Wave 11/12 are critical waves due to offensive legion spells, looking at you snails, venture and PtA. Deathcaps don't care if you sent there. The caps also do massive damage on 13.
    To put it simply, one unit defines and forces too big implications in its current form. It has been nerfed in patchnotes since the dawn of early access, but the unit still keeps wrecking havoc across the board.

    My proposed possible solutions:
    1. Make the unit stack like it used to, 1 dcap aura and 1 hf aura per lane. Maximum up to 2x per aura in my opinion or it gets out of hand. wc 3 had an aura called heart stopper, essentially the same thing, X damage per second to massive area. This would give a good amount of AoE, but not become impossible to block.
    2. Make hf and dcap explode when they die, making their purpose TO die, making sure you dont have automatic nuclear melting setup in mid when you hold with dcaps. This would keep the "identity" of the unit somewhat the same, super strong AoE, but would prevent the hold from expending to mid.
    3. Anti spell damage aura unit. Same style as Kraken, but an aura for the wave against AoE, maybe too niche?
    4. Make cross-lane interactions, expand from point 1. have dcaps impact all lanes on 1 side, or the adjacent lane allowing teammates to help others out?
    5. Make Deathcap infect 1 unit, have that unit spread the "disease" of death, slowly spreading through the wave, and can be allowed to stack say up to 5 stacks so 5 dcaps would be max. The unit would become a type of unit that you accept leaking and feeding the enemy team, but unless mega leak, prevent all or a large portion of king damage
    I would love to hear other thoughts on the topic :cool:
     
  2. Marchombre

    Marchombre Member

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    I agree dcap scale really too well on 16-19 and that something should be done, if we want to avoid those "nerf HP -> nerf dmg -> up HP -> nerf HP" cycle :D

    About your solutions:
    1) I don't like at all. I think that one of the great things in LTD2 is that you can spam only unit if you want to. will not be optimal, but it's doable. Those kind of things open new strats. Limiting units to 1-2 of each isn't the right to do, in my opinion.

    2) I guess that would imply shifting power into tankyness, and make it a real frontline. That could work, but not the best I think.

    3) I do feel that a Spell Resistance Aura would be awesome. This could be used against more than dcap.
    Could be something to surprise your opponent, like a send on 10 against berseker with spell damage reduction.

    I think something like a 120-140 mythium aura with 5 + 15% spell damage reduction could do the work.
    One problem: Pyro would definitly be useless :p

    4) Not sure I understood that well.
    Do you mean that dcap AoE would hit your ally creeps as well ?
    That would involve quite a lot of issues.
    - As you said, that could only be with 1) restriction, which I really don't like
    - The AoE power is basically x2. Which means that waves like 9 or 12, where 1-2 dcap is more than enough, your ally will be able to be way undervalue. Not sure that would be healthy for the game.
    - If you dcap AoE last hit your ally creeps, where does the gold go ? dcap owner (the one who killed the creep) ? Laner (the one who would have killed it, and didn't ask anything from his teammate) ?

    5) This one is the best solution so far. But still, that "max X unit" bothers me.

    Here are my thoughts.
    But, as I'm not someone who just say "you did shit" without coming up with an other solution, I'll propose this:

    6) Make dcap have a Huge single DPS at beginning, which will be converted in AoE as the wave goes.
    Flower opening its spores everytime it's attacking.

    This way, dcap AoE will need a good delay to become truly OP, even stacked.
    You'll need quite a nice frontline to hold until they can melt creeps, which I think will be ok (you shouldn't be able to be much undervalued)

    And that would make dcap somewhat useful on bosses waves, thanks to those 2-3 hits which will have decent single target damage.
     
  3. Roshkatul

    Roshkatul Member

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    I think deathcaps need a 100 HP nerf
     
    Cornep likes this.
  4. Cornep

    Cornep Member

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    Thank you @Roshkatul for this indepth answer to solve the problem.
     
  5. Roshkatul

    Roshkatul Member

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    Hey, clearly seemed to work so far. No problem
     
  6. Mick

    Mick Member

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    How about it just gets fixed damage instead of % of enemies' health? That is mainly what makes them OP in wave 16+ in my opinion.

    And 100 hp nerf (but only if the statistics show DCaps are OP).
     
  7. Cornep

    Cornep Member

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    If the unit is a fixed damage it will be broken early and useless late game.

    100hp wont fix the core problem...
     
  8. Roshkatul

    Roshkatul Member

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    How about 150?
     
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  9. Cornep

    Cornep Member

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    Got to be careful with that Sarcasm, might lead to a nuclear meltdown in those quantities.
     
  10. Marchombre

    Marchombre Member

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    I love how you are feeding the troll but not responding to the guys who actually answered and gave an other possible solution <3
     
  11. Roshkatul

    Roshkatul Member

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    Isn't that the way of balancing things in this game?

    Hmmm, yess, good suggestions about how to make that unit work .. ok, -0.02 attack speed next patch
     
  12. Cornep

    Cornep Member

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    @Marchombre
    I think your rank 6 suggestion would actually make then much more broken.

    Initial high ST and then to high AoE, would mean they would not even be weak on ranged waves anymore

    Honestly, i can't say what would be the "optimal" solution, but I feel like it should remain a full AoE unit, just curb the broken scaling and keep it usable.
     
  13. GvR Mr Mister

    GvR Mr Mister Member

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    Deathcaps could apply some stacking debuff that lowers dc's dmg dealt to that unit.
    So if you have 1 deathcap its dmg is 100%
    Add a 2nd dc: 95% dmg per dc
    3: 90% etc
     
  14. Cornep

    Cornep Member

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    Yeah, but that is essentially making first cap super strong or anything past 1 is total garbage no?

    It might work if tuned, but would feel worse imo than having a limit.
     
  15. Roshkatul

    Roshkatul Member

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    If you wanna find out this unit's future, you have to learn from it's past.

    - Deathcap used to have like.. 3800hp or so, and it was balanced. It was a really tanky unit, which dealt some aoe damage. It could be considered a tank.
    - Lisk changed the way DoTs work, which broke the old wave 19, fire elemental and deathcap/honeyflower. Basically, the damage of those units was higher by like 50% than before.
    - Jules instead of nerfing the damage, to bring it down the old level, decided to heavily nerf the HP of both honeyflower and deathcap, basically changing the unit's identity from a tanky-low dps aoe unit to a squishy-huge dps aoe unit.
    -> Outcome: People didn't know how to use them anymore, they were used to have them tank for a long time, and even on early waves like 9, the deathcap died before it could finish off the wave after these changes.
    Eventually players found out that they need other tanks for deathcaps (or preferably whitemane). But because this ended up being a costly combo (bunch of dcaps + heavy tanks), it wasn't considered that good, and dcaps and honeyflowers were still really squishy.
    -> Hp got slightly buffed back up, people started using them again
    -> Spell damage sorcerer was added into the game
    - During a custom game on haze_tech's stream, i randomly spammed only dcaps and rogue waves, nothing else. The outcome was retarded, i was even able to hold wave 20 with only dcaps.
    -> Deathcaps are crazy strong 3 important waves in a row (16,17,18) just like haven used to be back in the days (before 18-19 switch)
    - I started spamming them more often (5-6+ of them) in ranked, doing really long saves knowing that i was unbeatable on most of the mid-game waves (had games where i saved 12 to 19 with dcaps, without leaking to any sends/resends along the way)
    -> Got 'flamed' for it
    -> In the community patch, before they were even spammed that hard, 'we' nerfed the dmg of dcaps by a bit (I initially wanted an even bigger nerf)
    -> Was still not enough, people started 'abusing' deathcaps, especially in combination with rogue wave/ranger/sorcerer/a good tank.



    => When hp was too low, dcaps weren't used early game, because they were too squishy, and the investment was too big for late game
    => When hp was slightly higher, people spammed dcaps like crazy
    => Think this should be proof that changing the hp won't work and will either make them unusable or too strong

    ====> Shift some of the damage to hp, to bring the unit back to where it was when it was balanced.
     
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  16. Nacccho

    Nacccho Member

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    Just bumping this, cause its EXACTLY my opinion and i said it before aswell, multiple times during the course of these gradual changes.

    ~~
    The spite in his comment, its because he already went through huge lengths to make detailed balance suggestions, with 100% sound reasoning for them, to see the real patches come in with simplistic unnefective changes. So its tough for him to put the intelectual work in, with no results and also no financial rewards.

    ~~
    I just want @Jules to know, i lobby Rosh for a position of a "balance consultant" in AA hahaha.
    But seriously, i really think he'd help, and if you guys decide to not go his way, at least he gets some money for his work ;p
     
  17. Cornep

    Cornep Member

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    @Nacccho he just trolled a bit since i trolled him on discord before posting this.

    Something has to change. and while this post is dedicated to Deathcaps, I would say Doppelganger and Azeria are much bigger problems on the "OP" scale, but deathcap is by far the biggest threath to game staying "normal", not forcing enemy team to skip 5+ waves automatically.
     
  18. Marchombre

    Marchombre Member

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    @Cornep, I posted my suggestion in details in design room.
    I do think that could work. Added the shifting power from pure damage dealer to tank, so our old honey & dcap will be back :D
     
    Cornep likes this.