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Game Balance Tier Lists

Discussion in 'Balance Discussion' started by Jules, May 10, 2017.

  1. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    Hey guys, it would be helpful to hear your thoughts on unit balance, and creating a tier list is a fun way to do it!
    1. Hit the "Reply" button on this post and delete the QUOTE tags. This will copy everything while preserving formatting and color.
    2. Indicate which game version number you played last.
    3. To the best of your ability, move units that you are familiar with into the following tiers (copy-and-paste from the lists below).
    4. If you aren't familiar with some units, just delete them from the list.
    5. If you'd like, explain your reasoning, but it's not necessary.
    6. If you want to update your tier list for a different patch, please make a new post.
    Game Version:

    Fighters

    A: Very Strong

    B: Strong

    C: Balanced

    D: Weak

    F: Very Weak


    Pollywog
    Seraphin
    Devilfish
    Angler
    Bounty Hunter
    Kingpin
    Sea Serpent
    Deepcoiler
    Grarl
    Ocean Templar
    King Claw
    Priestess of the Abyss
    Azeria
    Eggsack/Hydra


    Proton
    Atom
    Aqua Spirit
    Rogue Wave
    Fire Elemental
    Windhawk
    Violet
    Mudman
    Golem
    Disciple
    Starcaller
    Fire Lord
    Fenix

    Bone Warrior
    Bone Crusher
    Dark Mage
    Fire Archer
    Gargoyle
    Green Devil
    Gateguard
    Harbinger
    Butcher
    Head Chef
    Nightmare
    Doppelganger
    Lord of Death
    Hades


    Buzz
    Consort
    Ranger
    Daphne
    Wileshroom
    Canopie
    Honeyflower
    Deathcap
    Antler
    Whitemane
    Banana Bunk
    Banana Haven

    Peewee
    Veteran
    Bazooka
    Zeus
    Pyro
    Tempest

    Leviathan
    APS
    MPS
    Berserker
    Fatalizer
    Millennium
    Doomsday Machine

    Looter
    Packrat
    Harpy
    Sky Queen


    Mercenaries

    A: Very Strong

    B: Strong

    C: Balanced

    D: Weak

    F: Very Weak


    Snail
    Lizard
    Dragonturtle
    Fiend
    Brute
    Dino
    Hermit
    Drake
    Safety Mole
    Mimic
    Pack Leader
    Witch
    Ogre
    Four Eyes
    Ghost Knight
    Siege Ram
    Centaur
    Shaman
    Siege Ram
    Kraken

    Waves

    A: Very high threat to leak

    B: High threat to leak

    C: Moderate threat to leak

    D: Low threat to leak

    F: Very low threat to leak


    (1) Crabs
    (2) Wales
    (3) Hoppers
    (4) Flying Chickens
    (5) Scorpions
    (6) Rockos
    (7) Sludges
    (8) Kobras
    (9) Carapaces
    (10) Granddaddy
    (11) Quill Shooters
    (12) Mantis
    (13) Drill Golems
    (14) Killer Slugs
    (15) Quadrapuses
    (16) Cardinals
    (17) Metal Dragons
    (18) Wale Chiefs
    (19) Dire Toads
    (20) Maccabeus
    (21) Legion Lords

    Legion Spells

    Allowance
    Dark Ritual
    Full House
    Giant Snail
    Hero
    Investment
    Loan
    Market
    Overwork
    Press the Attack
    Reroll
    Sacrifice
    Savior
    Sorcerer (mana regeneration)
    Sorcerer (spell damage)
    Vampire
    Venture
    Villain
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2018
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  2. plucb

    plucb Member

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    Game Version: 1 may version

    Fighters

    A: Very Strong
    Aqua Spirit: can carry easily first round

    B: Strong

    Windhawk
    Golem
    Fire Lord

    C: Balanced

    Golem
    Proton
    Fire Elemental
    Violet
    Disciple

    D: Weak

    Atom: idk maybe they don't have enough attack speed

    F: Very Weak


     
    Last edited: May 10, 2017
  3. ithion

    ithion Member

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    After 71hours of testing this are my impression. I've avoided element most of the time. Done my best to take the purpose of each unit into consideration.

    In general you can say that expensive units tend to be weaker and upgrades even more so weak.

    Game Version: 1.22


    Fighters

    A: Very Strong
    Aqua Spirit
    Rogue Wave
    Fire Elemental
    Mudman

    Bone Warrior

    B: Strong
    Gateguard
    Harbinger
    Head Chef
    Lord of Death

    Consort
    Antler

    Pyro
    Tempest

    C: Balanced
    Proton
    Windhawk
    Bone Crusher

    Fire Archer
    Green Devil
    Butcher
    Deathcap
    Veteran
    Bazooka
    Zeus
    APS
    MPS
    Millenium

    D: Weak
    Dark Mage
    Ranger
    Wileshroom
    Canopie
    Honeyflower
    Whitemane
    Banana Bunk

    Peewee
    Doomsday Machine - never worth its price
    Hades

    F: Very Weak

    Gargoyle - as close to worthless as a tower can be, no matter what placement u use
    Nightmare - pointless
    Doppelganger - pointless

    Daphne - Is there a extremely weak category?
    Wileshroom - Armor/attack type issues
    Canopie - see above
    Honeyflower - just not good enough for it's purpose
    Banana Haven - when would you ever want to build it? not worth it's price on any level

    Leviathan
    Berserker
    Fatalizer


    Mercenaries

    B: Strong
    Lizard

    C: Balanced
    Safety Mole
    Snail
    Fiend
    Brute
    Dragonturtle
    Drake
    Pack Leader
    D: Weak
    Dino - never good enough for it's purpose
    Hermit

    F: Very Weak
    Mimic
    Kraken - dies like a fly when it can be sent and you have to save a lot to get it.

    Honestly mercenaries are rarely a big worry. Just with certain agressive builds on certain levels.

    Waves

    I'll return for these when I've time
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2017
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  4. deutscherhawk

    deutscherhawk Moderator

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    NOTE: All of these considerations take into account cost. Just because I have Bone Warrior in Very Strong and Fenix in Very Weak doesnt mean that a BW would win 1v1.

    Game Version: 1.22


    Fighters


    A: Very Strong
    Bone Warrior (Can hold 1 with 135 value against a ghoul, 2xsnail, and only leaks 1-2 vs lizard. 150 value holds lizard. Recommend HP nerf)
    Rogue Wave/Fire Elemental (Think spell damage could be slightly nerfed)
    Pyro

    B: Strong
    Proton
    Mudman
    Violet (Could use HP nerf, but would like to see some range added since violet works best as mid-range dps)

    Harbinger (The only tank upgrade I think is superior than spamming the non-upgraded version)
    Fire Archer (very strong early, but also lose effectiveness relatively early)

    Antler
    Tempest
    APS

    C: Balanced
    Aqua Spirit (good but not amazing DPS and weak HP. Very vulnerable to summons)
    Windhawk
    Disciple
    Starcaller
    Fire Lord
    Atom

    Bone Crusher
    Green Devil
    Gateguard
    Butcher
    Head Chef
    Lord of Death

    Veteran
    Bazooka
    Zeus
    MPS
    Millenium



    D: Weak
    Dark Mage (When he hits a fire archer or lord of death hes amazing, when he hits gateguard or bonecrusher hes counter productive)
    Hades (Could use a dps buff since his imps no longer infinitely respawn. Honestly close to very weak category now)
    Nightmare


    Peewee (can hold its own on 5, but has armor/attack issues for the first 4 waves and after that isn’t strong enough to pull its weight)
    Berserker (Not sure it’s weak so much as kind of pointless, when would I need it)
    Doomsday (2x Millennium are more effective)



    F: Very Weak
    Fenix
    Gargoyle
    Daphne
    Ranger



    Grove: Haven't played enough to give adequate feedback on too many specific units. My main thoughts are: No adequate damage dealers and an exceptional amount of natural armor. T2 are arguably two of the 5 weakest units in the game. T3 has good stats but always seems to underperform, and as a whole the only unit to balance out the insane weakness to magic damage and natural armor typing is T4 which has poor stats as an aura. Buffing T2 and switching the attack damage types of t3 and t4 I think would help resolve 90% of the issues with grove and make it competitive with the other races.



    Mercenaries

    A: Very Strong
    Pack Leader
    (the leak king. Income should probably be nerfed)

    B: Strong
    Lizard
    Safety Mole
    (I’d like safety mole aura to be stronger than it is, but income would need to be nerfed appropriately)

    C: Balanced
    Fiend
    (has waves where it’s stronger than lizard, but it usually dies very quickly as a melee)
    Mimic (weak fighter, but better income stats makes it a viable send on weaker waves)
    Drake
    Shaman
    Centaur


    D: Weak
    Brute
    (possibly buff stun chance)
    Snail (think this is intended?)
    Dino (Very good tank, but its slow movement speed means half the wave has been killed before it tanks)
    Hermit (range needs nerfed or aura range needs increased—too often most of the enemy wave isn’t being healed)

    F: Very Weak
    Kraken
    Dragon Turtle


    Mercenary System in General: There simply isn't fast enough mythium collection to send 90% of the more expensive units. At 20-21ish workers you can afford about 200 mythium per round, which means you'd have to save at least two rounds to send any unit at that tier, more to send a Kraken. Since 16-19 are so weak, there's virtually no point in sending a mercenary on these waves or saving for one, which means the only wave you'd save for is 15. After that you either save 5 rounds for 20 or send a few mimics to increase income/value. I feel like overall mercenaries aren't very effective except for on wave 1, or certain auras like pack leader on dangerous waves (13, 15 especially) I'd like to see mythium rate increased (or mythium cost decreased) and income nerfed accordingly so that we see higher damaging sends earlier without impacting the total gold in the game. and can afford to send tougher units.

    Waves

    A: Very high threat to leak
    (20) Maccabeus
    (15) Quadrapuses (unless you’re element)


    B: High threat to leak
    (10) Granddaddys
    (11) Dire Toads
    (13) Drill Golems

    C: Moderate threat to leak
    (1) Crabs
    (4) Flying Chickens
    (5) Scorpions
    (7) Sludges
    (8) Quill Shooters

    D: Low threat to leak
    (2) Wales
    (3) Hoppers
    (9) Carapaces
    (12) Mantis
    (14) Killer Slugs

    F: Very low threat to leak
    (6) Rockos
    (16) Metal Dragons
    (17) Cardinals
    (18) Kobras
    (19) Wale Chiefs
     
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  5. ithion

    ithion Member

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    Imagine that, @deutscherhawk wrote the waves and mercenary text.

    I'll just say that you really need to push income hard to make 4-7-9 a threat. Like 5 workers on 4, 7-9 on 7 or 8-10 on 8.
     
  6. ithion

    ithion Member

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    Regarding waves:
    I usually play with something like this in mind. There are a few off cases. For example you can always get more workers with a long game or feed etc. But this is the template
    This might help you in some way.
    1) 135-200 1-2w
    2) 180-240 2w
    3) 200-250 3-4w
    4) 300-350 4-5w
    5) 400-470 4-5w
    6) 6-8w depending on gold.
    - I do not type any value for 6 because a reward should be given to those who leak this level if they held 5. For example, I never with any race/strategy build anything on this level. There is never a mercenary strong enough that one can send that makes any difference. I still don't know what armor/attack type it has unless I look it up in my cheatsheet because I simply don't care. It's much easier than level 6 in wc3-ltd v1.60b and that says alot.
    7) 500-650 7-9w
    8) 620-700 8-10w
    9) 780-900 8-11w
    10) 980-1100 9-12w
    11) 1150-1400 10-13w depends on the race
    12) 1250-1350 14-17w usually full W, perhaps add 100ish value
    13) Depending on value and race full build or 1-2 more W +build
    14-20) full build

    15) require 2100-2400 just get as much as possible lol

    19) well I don't know cause by now I always have enough but around 3100value should be enough, 3500 is for sure.
    20) As much as possible.. but build smart and 4500-5000 is usually enough.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2017
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  7. ithion

    ithion Member

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    Sending Mercenaries notes:
    Imho, it takes to long to afford the tougher once. Because when you do they are not so powerfull compared to the waves that it effects the receiver much. As of now, you need to save to afford them and if you do send one they are quite easily killed.
    Early 1-3: Lizard level 1 OR dragon turtle level 2. Brute has a tendancy to sometime dance behind level 2 and not attack so I don't want to risk that even though I think brute might be the stronger one.
    Rest snails for extra gold, + snails can be a bother if you have a tight build and get a couple of them
    4: fiend, it is a little like the ghoul tactic on level 5 in v1.60b but you never afford two so not as lethal
    5: Not sure but it's worth to send on it
    6: I only send if I know I will end up with 42-49 gold left after workerspam
    7: Can be worth it to be able to send a 100mythium summon here.
    8: You rarely have enough to send something worth a 100 here and 7 feels harder so I prefer spending my mythium. A brute here is usually to weak to be more than a freekill.
    *note, I do leak 8 sometimes though when I push workers to hard so it's not a complete waste
    9: A wave were you might have to think about attack type, on the other hand it's right before boss. Makes up for a variety of tactics. Send something hard, save for 10 or send to get as much gold as possible before 10?
    11: the most expensive aura u can find
    13: could be worthwhile to save for this one. this is were players still get workers and it's quite strong. Some builds/races are weak vs 13 aswell.
    14: save, one reason is that 15 is so strong. The other is that the wave is SOO slow that any summon turns into a freekill. This gives the opponent easy gold and triggers the towers so that they start to form up for the wave. The wave itself is quite decent.


    after 15 -> save for 20 if you do not want to send 1-2 mimics to get extra value to deal with boss.

    I have found myself mostly sending lizard,snails,dragon hawks, moles, hermit (if not ranged level, then the other) that 200aura thingy and shaman (only because it should fit, I have not tested it's strength so I dunno how balanced it is) +auras on 20. And mimics when I've nothing better to do. like for 12 or so.

    I think the high prices for supply hurts summoning quite a lot compared to 1.60b.
     
  8. Rave

    Rave Member

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    Since I mosly played Elemental I will only rate the Elemental-Race for now. I only listed the Mercs/Fighters I used multiple times (except for Kraken, I only fought it twice but never sent it myself)
    Game Version: 1.23c

    Fighters

    A: Very Strong

    Proton (can get 11 workers on wave 8 and safe-holding every wave with protons only - maybe lower the health a bit so it gets one-hitted by the first boss and you actually need tanks in front)

    B: Strong

    Mudman (really strong tank, hughe amount of hp for its cost)
    Starcaller (strong because of its aura, the aura makes disciples really strong and it can be used for some insane combos with other races in the middle like with lord of deaths)


    C: Balanced


    Aqua Spirit
    Disciple
    Golem (between balanced and strong, just like the mudman a really good tank)


    D: Weak

    Atom (the counter-part of the proton, it deals 3x as much dmg and has 3,5x hp while it costs 5x as much, the only good part about the Atom is the low supply-cost but it does not nullify its weakness, a lot of the time enemies are wasting damage when attacking a enemy that has low health, for example in the first bossfight the atom dies after 4 hits while the Proton dies after 2 (most of the time), so in that bossfight the atom only has 2x the hp and still deals 3x the dmg, just not worth it for 95 gold)

    Fire Lord (I would put it to Balanced if wave 20 would not excist. the Ability is sadly useless against the bosses so it fails as a tank and has not high enough dps compared to disciple+starcaller combo)
    Fenix (Same as Fire Lord, Except for Wave 20 the Fenix is pretty fun.. But at wave 20 it is soul-crushing bad)


    F: Very Weak



    Mercenaries

    A: Very Strong
    Safety Mole (on boss levels because the safety mole gets ignored until the boss dies)
    Pack Leader (same as safety mole, can also be used in key-waves like 15)

    B: Strong
    Dino (especially on ranged wave like wave 8 because of its giant health)


    C: Balanced
    Snail
    Lizard
    Fiend
    Mimic

    D: Weak
    Kraken (dies pretty fast but looks cool)

    F: Very Weak



    Waves

    A: Very high threat to leak
    (20) Maccabeus (very hard to kill.. possible with elements but not if you try to stay at the estimated value of 3,3k... should impossible to beat with 3,3k, maybe raise the estimated value to ~5-6k)

    B: High threat to leak
    (5) Scorpions
    (8) Quill Shooters
    (10) Granddaddys
    (11) Dire Toads
    (15) Quadrapuses

    C: Moderate threat to leak
    (1) Crabs
    (4) Flying Chickens
    (7) Sludges
    (9) Carapaces (highly depends on the tactic, high risk for protons only but low risk for pretty much everything else i think)
    (13) Drill Golems

    D: Low threat to leak
    (2) Wales
    (6) Rockos
    (12) Mantis
    (14) Killer Slugs
    (16) Metal Dragons

    F: Very low threat to leak
    (3) Hoppers
    (17) Cardinals
    (18) Kobras
    (19) Wale Chiefs
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2017
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  9. AsK

    AsK Member

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    So, now that i have played and i can understand the mechanics behind each builder, here's my take:
    Game Version: 1.23c

    Fighters

    A: Very Strong
    Proton
    Bone Warrior
    Bazooka


    B: Strong
    Atom
    Aqua Spirit
    Rogue Wave
    Fire Elemental
    Disciple
    Starcaller

    Green Devil
    Harbinger

    Buzz
    Canopie(but i think it needs to stay that way to make waves 11-15 viable as grove)
    Antler

    Peewee
    Pyro
    APS
    Tempest



    C: Balanced
    Windhawk
    Golem

    Bone Crusher
    Fire Archer
    Gateguard
    Butcher
    Doppelganger
    Lord of Death

    Consort
    Ranger
    Wileshroom
    Whitemane

    Veteran
    Bazooka
    Zeus
    MPS
    Leviathan
    Millennium


    D: Weak
    Violet
    Fire Lord

    Dark Mage(the attack speed bonus is kinda bad on a race where you usually have many low cost units and summons)
    Gargoyle
    Head Chef

    Daphne(only good on 10/15/20 maybe)
    Deathcap
    Banana Bunk

    Berserker
    Fatalizer(both berserker/fatalizer are really meh units, i aways feels like something else would be better)



    F: Very Weak

    Fenix
    Nightmare(I may be wrong here tho)
    Hades

    Honeyflower(low aura range for a ranged unit)
    Banana Haven

    Doomsday Machine
    (Every T6 upgrade looks really bad, every single one of them costs around 1.5 times the original and getting the original looks better on almost every situation)

    Also, most T1's are really high up in the rank, but when taking to consideration that you actually pay less gold but more supply for them, they turn out ok. The main issue is, getting a lot of T1 towers early(less value needed to defend the waves but more supply needed) and getting a good early count of workers looks like the go to strat right now, maybe if others strats were more viable, everything would look more balanced overall.


    Mercenaries

    A: Very Strong
    Lizard(Good on waves 1/2, good dps/ms per mith)
    Dragonturtle(really strong unit except for it's ms, 50% of the times it gets killed first if the person is building on the middle
    Safety Mole
    Pack Leader
    Safety/pack both have really strong auras with good income

    B: Strong
    Brute
    Dino(really good on waves like 8)
    Drake

    C: Balanced
    Snail
    Fiend(lizard is better 99% of the times)

    Dino
    Four Eyes
    Shaman

    D: Weak
    Hermit
    Mimic
    F: Very Weak
    Kraken(i was never able to send one so..)
    Ghost Knight(same as dragonturtle, ms is too high)


    Waves

    A: Very high threat to leak
    (10) Granddaddys
    (15) Quadrapuses
    (20) Maccabeus

    B: High threat to leak
    (5) Scorpions
    (8) Quill Shooters
    (11) Dire Toads


    C: Moderate threat to leak
    (1) Crabs
    (2) Wales
    (13) Drill Golems


    D: Low threat to leak
    (4) Flying Chickens
    (7) Sludges
    (9) Carapaces
    (12) Mantis
    (14) Killer Slugs

    F: Very low threat to leak
    (3) Hoppers
    (6) Rockos
    (16) Metal Dragons
    (17) Cardinals
    (18) Kobras
    (19) Wale Chiefs


    I'll update more info later.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2017
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  10. von Oberstain

    von Oberstain Member

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    Because I'm unable to write nicely formatted text in forums, due to an old war-wound - and also contributed by a major laziness attacks, I'll post a table...

    Game Version: as of the last site update

    Ok, in attachment is my old LegionTD Pro balancing table, refitted to LegionTD 2. It holds many links crossing from one sheet to another, so I left everything in, but the main thing that should be looked at is 'raw' sheet.

    Quick instructions:
    1. Current status is generally best visible on 'semaphores' next to the tower name. There art 5 of them, but using the last one is typically enough (it's called 'mix')
    2. Green numbers show values above 100% - those are relative relations between AVERAGE bang-and-hp-for-buck, so if unit has 120%, it's an indication that unit is probably overpowered, same being true to opposite
    3. Early unit, as tier1 and tier2 unupgraded can be in 110-120% range, depending on how long the unit is usable
    4. Endgame units can be 85-100% and still be usable, because of large amount of HP and general toughness
    5. Table automatically applies bonuses for ranged units and flyers - whether they are the same as in old Legion or not will require a lot of experience. Those units are often fine with under-100% values
    6. Unquantifiable modifiers, such as bonuses for ability are applied manually. There could be a lot of corrections needed.

    7. Editing stuff:
    a. fields with HP and nHP are entered or changed manually, and they should be the same (for now)
    b. damage and atspd - the same
    c. cost - entered manually, and only 'Total' means anything; reducing cost increases semaphores greatly, same being true for increase
    d. dps, cooldown and Armour/Attack shouldn't be touched at all (first two are functions, and second two are complicated bonuses, currently turned off, but if changes everything falls apart)
    So, that would be it, for now. I have a lot more work to do, the waves and summons for example, and some other stuff that was working. But, the war-wound...

    Results are, pretty much what I have to say anyway:

    Forsaken:
    Skeletons are mostly fine (and there may be an error with Fire-Archer), Green Dragon and Butcher/Upgrade are underperforming, whole Summoning line-up is somewhat disappointing (compared to 1.6b, where they were overpowered) - but the biggest losers are Nightmare/Doppelganger

    Mech: Peewee - well, OP but needs to be handled with care, because of other units (yes, I'm probably only one who still believes in mass-peewee strategy), Bazooka-tree OK, aura-vehicles could use some love (it's OK for them to be in red, but perhaps not this much), Tempest/upg OP, Berserker/upg very underpowered, Tanks OP.

    ...and the similar for other two.

    Once again, though table is a good reference and indicator (writing something like that is a partof my tedious and hated real-life work, I do that for 20-25 years - yes, even before the work, so I'm supposed to be at least decent at it) - but human is always necessary to check the readings! In that way, many mistakes could be avoided, and number-crunching is there only to point out potential 'offenders'.
     

    Attached Files:

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  11. holepercent

    holepercent Member

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    Game Version: 1.23f

    On current balance, it appears Element comes up top, followed by Mech. Before this balance patch, Forsaken was bottom. With Forsaken receiving buffs, Grove seems to be worse off now while being really tricky to find a balanced build. Spamming tier 1 units seem to dominate most builds. Most tier 5 and 6 units are simply too expensive or cost inefficient, especially the upgrades.

    Fighters

    A: Very Strong
    Proton (this is probably the go-to t1 unit. The more common strategy seems to start with massing this)


    B: Strong

    Atom
    Aqua Spirit (good general wave clear, although you probably don't want too many for wave 20)
    Rogue Wave
    Disciple (strong single target damage against big units)
    Starcaller

    Bone Warrior (works as tank and damage dealers)
    Gateguard (serves as tank and damage dealer on the front line)
    Harbinger (high hp makes for a strong tank)

    Peewee (this unit is still a strong start)
    Millennium (Good damage for wave 15+)

    C: Balanced

    Fire Elemental (depending on placements, the ability isn't always that reliable)
    Windhawk (needs more testing to see how this fits into the overall strategy, consider balanced for now)
    Violet
    Mudman (top choice for front line tank, especially for early game like wave 5 and 8)
    Golem (the high hp makes for a strong tank while other units deal the damage)

    Bone Crusher (sometimes you will just upgrade to this when you're short of supply)
    Gargoyle (this used to be really weak, but it is finding its place in some builds now. Needs more testing)
    Green Devil
    Butcher (will consider this balanced for now. with much of the race melee, tends to get stuck in the crowd of fighters and do nothing.)
    Head Chef
    Lord of Death

    Ranger (this is useful for the mini boss, boss and big sends)
    Daphne
    Wileshroom
    Canopie
    Honeyflower
    Deathcap
    Antler
    Whitemane

    Veteran
    Bazooka
    Zeus (good single target damage)
    Pyro
    APS
    MPS
    Tempest (have to test this more, consider balanced for now)

    D: Weak

    Fire Lord (either needs to deal more damage or survive longer)
    Dark Mage (while the fighter itself isn't bad, the more common forsaken builds involves massing many small units, reducing the ability's effectiveness.)
    Fire Archer (strong for the early waves, but drops off really fast)
    Nightmare (still too weak and not worth the cost. Does a solo nightmare even hold wave 1?)
    Doppelganger
    Hades

    Buzz (find these die faster and 'tank' less compared to the other tier 1 units)
    Consort
    Banana Bunk (still too weak to justify the cost)
    Banana Haven

    Leviathan (should test this more)
    Berserker (still doesn't deal enough damage or tank enough to justify the cost)
    Fatalizer
    Doomsday Machine (putting this here mostly due to the prohibitive cost)

    F: Very Weak

    Fenix (simply does too little to justify the high cost)




    Mercenaries

    A: Very Strong

    B: Strong

    Lizard
    Safety Mole
    Pack Leader
    Shaman

    C: Balanced

    Snail (send purely for income, or as filler with other big guys)
    Fiend
    Brute
    Dragonturtle
    Drake
    Centaur
    Four Eyes
    Ghost Knight

    D: Weak
    Dino
    Hermit (the range on the aura feels low)
    Mimic
    Kraken (dies too easily, considering how long you have to save)

    F: Very Weak

    Waves

    A: Very high threat to leak
    (10) Granddaddys
    (15) Quadrapuses
    (20) Maccabeus
    B: High threat to leak

    C: Moderate threat to leak

    D: Low threat to leak

    F: Very low threat to leak


    (1) Crabs
    (2) Wales
    (3) Hoppers
    (4) Flying Chickens
    (5) Scorpions
    (6) Rockos
    (7) Sludges
    (8) Quill Shooters
    (9) Carapaces
    (11) Dire Toads
    (12) Mantis
    (13) Drill Golems
    (14) Killer Slugs
    (16) Metal Dragons
    (17) Cardinals
    (18) Kobras
    (19) Wale Chiefs
     
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  12. deutscherhawk

    deutscherhawk Moderator

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    Strong

    Mudman
    Golem
    Rogue Wave/Fire Elemental

    Fire Archer
    Harbinger

    Pyro
    Millenium

    Fatalizer--The way nightmare/doppel/zerker should act, at a higher price point. Due to whatever reason (lwoer collision?) it gets stuck subsantially less than the aforementioned units and it devastates. Seriously considered putting it in Very Strong. If this is any indicatoin once pathing is fixed the other units will also need a nerf once they function as in
    Canopie
    Antler

    Proton
    Bone Warrior
    Buzz


    Balanced

    Atom
    Aqua
    Windhawk
    Violet
    (While I love windhawk being melee, I REALLY wish violet would have small range so it would stay behind mudman and be a good option on 10)
    Disciple
    Starcaller

    Bonecrusher
    Dark Mage
    Gargoyle
    Gateguard
    Head Chef

    Lord of Death
    (assuming it gets 2 dragons off)
    Veteran
    Zooka
    APS
    Tempest

    Consort
    Ranger
    Wileshroom
    Honeyflower
    Deathcap

    Banana Bunk--More testing needed, but feels quite balanced. I'd like it to be more dps than tank oriented but that doesn't fit the "essence" of Grove.
    Banana Haven--I probably havent done enough testing to be confident in placing them here, but it's late and I'm tired and I want to finish this list. Initial results seem to indicate haven being very good and probably better than banana bunk.

    Nightmare (A very strong dps when it doesn’t freeze. I also wish it would stay behind tanks a bit more, if it decides to run into the middle of a fray rather than stay on the outskirts you probably lose—the inherent problem of “rogue” style damage dealers in an autoattack game where you cant control the units)
    Doppelganger (better in a dualmid or cross build due to more enemies to build up attack counter. In a solo game it is difficult to afford before wave 15 due to its cost, when ideally you’d want it closer to 11)
    MPS
    Bezerker--
    Attempted to use and it hit the same bug as nightmare. It is difficult to give it an adequate assessment, but on the waves it does not freeze it appears to do its job admirably. Rating balanced for now.

    Weak

    Butcher (Helps the already strong tanks, but forsaken lacks good damage dealers besides t5)
    Peewee (It’s stats are good but it’s armor typing makes it virtually useless until level 4/5, and that’s already too late for a 25g unit.)
    Zeus (changing to magic killed a useful unit. Now it serves nothing that pyro doesn’t for minimal gold difference. Pierce provided very nice damage change for 10 for example)
    Doomsday (You have to save for this unit even in the late late game, this means you have to not spend gold and risk leaking a level in order to afford it. That won’t happen until waves 18-19 meaning doomsday only has 1 powerful wave it can be used on.)
    Green Devil (It doesn’t tank well, and its dps feels lacking. Its attack/armor was changed to make 11/15 easier for forsaken, but I’ve found other units far more useful in doing so despite the perfect armor matchup.)

    Daphne-Daphne ranges between balanced and weak depending on the simple question of: do you have natural armor? If you have an Antler daphne does okay on 9/10/11/12, about as good as ranger+honeyflower. But if your build has emphasized wileshrooms/canopies, then ranger+honeyflower is far superior. This makes it a very build dependent unit, and will make it exceptionally weak when it's used in prophet mode unless you get the right unit rolls. The DPS feels right for a support unit, but it feels *too* specialized at the moment. I'll mention again my suggestion of removing the natural armor limitation of the debuff, and then of course nerfing it substantially.

    Hades--Buff was extremely noticeable, but still under performs relative to Lord of Death. I'll take 5 Lord of Death over 2 Hades every time.

    TESTING NEEDED:

    Have not tried these units since 1.24 changes, but previously all were considered weak. Will Update this post in time to reflect new testing.


    Waves

    A: Very high threat to leak

    (15) Quadrapuses
    (20) Maccabeus
    B: High threat to leak
    (5) Scorpions
    (8) Quill Shooters
    (10) Granddaddys
    (13) Drill Golems (I keep banging the drum that this level is vastly underestimated especially as people focus on 15)
    (16) Metal Dragons
    C: Moderate threat to leak
    (4) Flying Chickens
    (7) Sludges
    (9) Carapaces
    (11) Dire Toads (Closer to high threat. Wave is still strong but every race has a good counter now except Forsaken)
    D: Low threat to leak
    (1) Crabs (if you go 1 worker or bad type matchup)
    (12) Mantis
    (14) Killer Slugs
    (18) Kobras

    F: Very low threat to leak

    (2) Wales
    (3) Hoppers
    (6) Rockos
    (17) Cardinals
    (19) Wale Chiefs

    Mercenaries
    A: Very Strong

    Pack Leader
    Hermit

    B: Strong
    Lizard
    Safety Mole
    Shaman
    Dragon Turtle
    Dino (If you get it to function as a tank it's amazing)

    C: Balanced
    Snail (send purely for income, or as filler with other big guys)
    Fiend
    Drake
    Mimic

    D: Weak
    Brute
    Kraken (dies too easily, considering how long you have to save)


    Anything above this is only sent maybe once a game and so there's not enough testing on it. I really want to use the expensive summons more but they're simply too expensive and mythium income is too low to send them unless you save for 3 levels, at which point you send one of them + an aura.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2017
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  13. ithion

    ithion Member

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    I still think more cheap units > few upgraded once. It feels kinda backwards. Yes the expensive once cost less per supply but when two unit- are basically the same ( like proton/atom) but one cost 5 times as much but is not atleast 5 times as usefull/strong it just feels wrong. Besides, many units give you benefits of keeping the wave away from your ranged units, make the wave attack less efficiently etc.
    I'm not talking about upgrades such as bazooka/pyro/zeus or buzz->consort because they are so different from eachother.
    An exception would be mudman -> golem
    Game Version: 1.24a

    Fighters

    A: Very Strong

    B: Strong
    Proton
    Mudman

    Golem
    Antler
    Pyro
    C: Balanced
    Aqua
    Rogue Wave
    Fire Elemental

    Windhawk - in stats it's good but in a game it's not as useful for it's strongest waves like 10 because of it's range
    Fire Archer

    Dark Mage
    Bone Warrior
    Deathcap
    Consort
    Wileshroom
    Canopie


    Bazooka
    Zeus
    APS
    Millenium
    Tempest

    D: Weak
    Butcher
    Bone Crusher - it feels like it's not in practice as in theory. High hp, good ability. But either its most of the time either tanking all the time or stands and attacks while the other tanks take care of the initial it. Ideally you would want it to go in and out of battle because it's dps is so low. Hard to get it to work.
    Gargoyle- it's getting there.. a lot more usefull then before.
    Nightmare - I will leave this one and doppelganger here for the moment. the price cut is ofcourse valuable but the stats still not very good. But it will be interesting to see when it's fixed. Still not a viable level 1 start though. (200g and u depend on luck isn't really worth it imo)
    Doppelganger


    Ranger - still weak. I would expect the symmetry with ranger/consort/banana bunk to be more usefull. I do build the tower though.
    Whitemane too expensive. You also want several antlers for it to work well.
    Banana Bunk. Would be better if groves long ranged units like daphne and ranger were more useful. Would serve the same role as pyro then. Because then it could be viable to take the first hits, have tanks roll in and take over. BB do ranged damage and then tank again while the long ranged units gets more hits in.

    Peewee - I only use it because I sort of have to.
    Doomsday Machine - never worth its price. Milleniums are simply a better option.
    Hades
    MPS - I get this just in case but I don't understand why aps for 110gold gives you +10% attack speed and then another 230g for 5% more. The unit is not that strong imho.
    Leviathan - seems to do good enough not to be a disaster pick but again very expensive and not better vs boss compared to 2.75 tempests. Hard to fit in somewhere in a build.

    Berserker - these two are not so weak stats wise but so damn expensive.
    Fatalizer



    F: Very Weak

    Daphne - It's ability is like meant to be usefull against boss levels but the bosses don't move around that much. ideally it would be the perfect choice for 9/10. Kinda like beasts medusa would be but it's not.

    Banana Haven - I never feel a need to use it.
    Veteran usable only because of the supply

    Mercenaries

    B: Strong
    hermit - after the buffs and some testing i'm moving it here. Very useful.

    C: Balanced
    These happens to be the mostly used together with hermit the once I use in a game.. which isn't a surprise because of the cost but I like them.
    Safety Mole
    Snail
    Lizard
    Fiend
    Dragon turtle
    Pack Leader
    Dino

    ---------
    Mimic it has a purpose and is good for that purpose Maybe it could be slower moving so it can do some little amount of damage atleast.

    D: Weak
    Drake. I do not find a scenario were I want to send this with my precious precious mythium.
    Brute dances too often.

    F: Very Weak
    Kraken - dies quite easily when it can be sent and you have to save a lot to get it.
    Still not impressed by it. I rate it low because it should imho be the obvious choice if you have
    Honestly mercenaries are rarely a big worry. Just with certain agressive builds on certain levels.

    Waves
    Waves

    A: Very high threat to leak

    (15) Quadrapuses
    (20) Maccabeus
    (16) Metal Dragons - good job on this one

    B: High threat to leak
    (5) Scorpions
    (8) Quill Shooters - see comment about 7
    (10) Granddaddys
    (13) Drill Golems - I've noticed it has a tendancy to come when players need supply up. Which makes mercs on this level be easier which makes people underestimate it. I think a small buff makes it a very viable level to send on. Catch people who have the most workers before they have time to build for a few lewels is a great idea.

    C: Moderate threat to leak

    (4) Flying Chickens - good level
    (7) Sludges - I would like 7 and 8 to be more equal in strength. Maybe a slight nerf to 8 and a slight buff to 7 could make it more of a threat. And a leak more punishing because it's followed by such a hard level.
    (9) Carapaces - good level
    (11) Dire Toads (Closer to high threat. Wave is still strong but every race has a good counter now except Forsaken)
    D: Low threat to leak
    (1) Crabs (if you go 1 worker or bad type matchup) - good level
    (2) Wales - a good wave. You can't just run over it with anything. I like that type matchup is so important so soon.


    D: Low threat to leak:
    (12) Mantis
    (14) Killer Slugs - tends to have weaker summons because it has so tough waves around it. And I do not think a uber slow wave adds that much. I feel like it's alot more worth it to jump this level and send 15/16. It's not very weak but rarely a threat as of now.
    (18) Kobras - needs a buff clearly.

    F: Very low threat to leak


    (3) Hoppers
    (6) Rockos
    (17) Cardinals - if you made it this far your probably very strong already in your defense. Dunno if I have seen anyone leak this level actually.
    (19) Wale Chiefs. it's the last chance to win for a team without strong anti-boss builds. Would be more fun if it was a viable threat. Also, supply eat up so much mythium at this point you rarely get of any tough sends. Right now it's always better to save what you have left over for 20. I have received very hard summons on this level without it doing much.
     
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  14. ithion

    ithion Member

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    Suggestions are intended to make all mercs used in the game and all late game waves a game-ending threat.

    Mercs that is not used so much:
    Brute, Drake, centaur, shaman, ghost knight.
    Drake, centaur, kraken feels a little weak. Drake often dies early. Centaur and kraken do not hurt as much as their costs suggest.

    Shaman has few use cases (see suggestion in #suggestions @discord)
    Brute is probably "weak" because the ability is not very effective vs spam that is so common at the moment. Maybe same logic can be applied to level 6.

    Waves:
    17 and 19 could use significant buffs still. There is a huge gap in value needed to defend between 19 and 20. This gap can be closed my increasing difficulty of the waves above. I don't see how to end a game on those waves like what's possible on 15/16.

    13, 14 and 18 can also be buffed. Not as much as 17/19 probably but still.

    now 11-14 feels like a build up to 15/16 which is hard (not too hard) and then 17 is a breather and by 18 you are most likely to clear easy unless you are on the edge and get very tough summons.

    12 feels like the weakest wave post 10 together with 17.
     
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  15. Nortan

    Nortan Member

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    Game Version [1.25]

    Very Strong
    Bone Warrior (These are really good early on. It's very easy to hold wave 1 with low value just using these)


    Strong
    [Aqua Spirit
    Rogue Wave
    Fire Elemental
    ] Strong vs standard waves and very weak vs boss wave. I wouldn't say that makes them balanced though

    Proton
    (Strong lead unit)
    Gargoyle (Good overall damage and health for 45 gold)
    Harbringer (This one is a hard call. It might be more 'balanced' since it's regular dps is relatively low)
    Doppelganger (Moved this up from balanced. It's actually pretty strong late game and essential in forsaken for holding 14 and especially 16 well)
    Fatalizer (Moved up from balanced as well. Without this tower Mech would simply be demolished on 16. It's dps is great but everything else mech has is range and this is not super tanky. It's the only thing on mech that has swift armor and nothing on mech has heavy armor. So impact attackers would rip through mech without something like this)
    Buzz (strong lead unit)
    Consort (strong dps and adequate health make these effective to spam early on)

    [
    Wildshroom
    Canopie
    ] Similar to consort they have good damage with enough health and complimentary armor typing.


    Antler (Great tank with whitemane aura. Otherwise balanced)
    Bazooka (These might be mechs best tower. They tend to waste damage with slow hits early waves though and have low health)


    Balanced

    [Whitemane
    Honey flower
    Deathcap

    APS
    MPS

    Butcher
    Head chef

    Starcaller] All aura towers will be categorized as balanced. On their own they are weak and poor early game options

    Green devil
    (Average only due to slightly low damage output. Armor type helps)
    Gateguard (These seem quite weak without a second summon. I feel they could be better but are acceptable)
    Dark mage
    Fire archer
    Lord of Death
    (Assuming multiple dragons and no immediate death. IMO dragon is too big a part of LoD)
    Hades (These seem okay. Definitely not great but okay. Like with LoD I would like more damage and health relegated to the hades himself. This might be more on the weak side even after the recent buff)

    [Berserker
    Nightmare] These are alright but they are not early game units and will be quickly upgraded in the late game. The swift armor and heavy hitting pierce makes these towers' upgrades basically mandatory for a couple of waves late game)


    Tempest (Perhaps it could use a bit more damage but maybe not since its damage was 'nerfed' in V 1.24)
    Leviathon (If you can afford them they seem adequate. Nothing too special though. Health might be a little low. IDK)
    Zues (Zues and Bazooka have decent damage but low health. They can be picked off easily if attacked. I'm not sure zues bonus damage needed to become magic but w/e)
    veteran (It's borderline weak but mech really can't avoid using it anyways and it only costs 1 supply. It's basically mechs "tank" tower it seems.)
    Pyro (These aren't as good as most people seem to think they are. In the early game they seem better because their fast attack speed picks off creatures efficiently so they get a 'pass'. They are borderline weak in my opinion. Damage seems low)
    Disciple (With starcaller and in later game these are about balanced I guess. Without starcaller and when they waste ability on low health creatures they are BAD. They are terrible early and okayish late. Wave 10 resists all their damage. Maybe make the ability impact damage instead? I wonder if they couldn't just have higher base damage with a weaker ability)
    Wind Hawk

    [Mudman
    Golem
    ] Solid tanks with low damage to compensate for it

    Ranger

    Weak

    Atom (The damage is good but I think they overcompensate for it with health and only 250 range. A small health increase might be appropriate. Another tower with a weakness that carries over from WC3)
    Violet (Health is too low to be up in melee. Their ability takes so long to recharge and the first charge usually only hits a handful of creatures. Needs more health in my opinion. Should consider faster recharge or increased range on aoe ability)
    Fire Lord (Kinda weak and doesn't seem to serve a noteworthy purpose. Might absorb some damage to keep stuff from hitting a squishy disciple instead but wouldn't it be better to just have a couple more mudmen? IDK. Putting this into weak cause I'm not sure what else to do with it)
    Fenix (it's not useless but it's not very useful either. It's awkward when it's behind a bunch of mudmen/golems doing subpar damage and on level 20 it's pretty terrible when it's quickly taken out. I honestly feel the tower is just designed badly. Elemental was a lot like mech in WC3 where it's towers didn't necessarily work together nicely. Your early game WC3 would be aqua spirits and mudmen but then you abandon that for an awkward Fenix spam that wasn't very good even with messiah[aka starcaller])
    Bone Crusher (It just feels weak. It has similar dps ratio to mudman with slightly less health ratio. It might just be that this works worse for lower cost towers or that elementals range is stronger. A small increase to either health or damage might be correct)

    Banana bunk (With ranger support these are almost balanced but even then I feel they fall short. Without ranger debuff these are just weak)
    Banana Haven (Same thing as bunk. For long range these guys are a bit behind in the damage. Overall I suggest higher base damage or attack speed)
    Daphne (Not much you can do here. It's the nature of the design to be better on boss waves and weaker elsewhere. Along with ranger debuff and the long 700 range this tower really isn't that bad and possibly fine left alone. This may be 'balanced' already)
    Millennium (Damage seems low and it's simply not impressive for the big price tag. Neotank was an awkward mech towers in WC3 but it had a better damage ratio. I always thought they should be beefy towers with shorter range so they compliment and can tank for mechs ranged towers but that's just my opinion. I also thought leviathon was better with a longer range. I keep saying it but mech has always seemed awkward to me)
    Doomsday Machine (Similar issue as millennium but even worse. This tower is more likely to waste damage with it's larger hits and it's so expensive you can only get 1 or 2 in a game but there is likely better options anyways with it's massive cost)
    Peewee (This actually isn't THAT bad. Compared to [proton/bone warrior/buzz] it is bad though. It's really not fair that mech has a disadvantage early game with these. I'm not sure if this speaks more to the other legions tier 1 tower being too good or peewee just being bad by comparison. Mech is the only legion that can not get a worker wave 1 and hold against send)

    Was going to place pyro and veteran in weak but reevaluated them a bit. It's a tough call.

    If I was playing mech I don't know that I would ever upgrade to a pyro unless I had nothing better to do or just had too many zues already (Maybe leave them bazooka if there is room). Veteran gets mowed down by piercing and impact all the time with it's arcane armor. Impact waves rip through mech until they can get berserker since they have no natural armor and no other swift.

    My potential solution to this would be convoluted and involve a big rework of pyro into a cheaper tower more accessible early game. Another route could be to make peewee/veteran natural armor (even though it doesn't make sense) and pyro arcane armor. Just an idea. In the grand scheme though we don't want each legion to be too similar. They should have some identity. Currently with mech that implies lots of fortified armor and no natural. I'm still trying to work out how mech should play.

    Very Weak

    Anything with splash damage on boss waves. Aqua spirit + upgrades + idk violet?

    I'll break down the DPS ratio to show why peewee might be bad

    Buzz: [10-12(11)/(1/1.12)] = 11/.893 = 12.32/20gold = 0.616 dps/g
    Bone warrior: [8-10(9)/1] = 9/15gold = 0.6 dps/g
    Proton: [13-16(14.5)/(1/.85)] = 14.5/1.176 = 12.33/20gold = 0.616 dps/g
    Peewee: [9-11(10)/(1/1.11) = 10/.9 = 11.111/25gold = 0.444 dps/g

    Peewee has a health bonus over the rest but not enough to compensate for the dps difference. Here it is regardless:

    Buzz: 170/20 = 8.5 hpg
    Bone warrior: 170/15 = 11.33 hpg
    Proton: 170/20 = 8.5 hpg
    peewee: 310/25 = 12.4 hpg

    Any other legion and I could get a worker wave 1 and survive a snail send but if you try that with mech you will get rolled over. I mean it's only the first few waves that you will feel the difference but I think that's significant enough since that is where they matter most. It does not help that the first wave is also Fortified armor while the second is natural armor, which both resist peewees piercing damage. When it comes down to it I feel that peewee is under-performing while bone warrior is over-performing. Perhaps it's is intended that forsaken has the strongest early game while mech has the weakest. Grove is second best due to buzz' ability.

    Edit: I've been told by senior alpha testers that even before 1.24 peewee 8% dps nerf it wasn't able to hold wave 1 and get a worker. They say the armor type is more to blame and I suppose that makes sense with arcane taking increased damage waves 1-4. Although I don't think that's all there is to it since bone warriors have light armor and push through wave 1 with no problem. It appears to be a combination of factors holding peewee back. Anyways it seems generally accepted that peewee is only used out of necessity. It might need a change or it can just be accepted that mech can't get a worker before wave 1.

    Questions
    Is mech designed with the expectation of the attack speed aura towers? It seems like most of their towers are on the weaker side but the aura might bring them up to par. That would make things more difficult to evaluate and leads to assertions that mech will be weaker overall in the early waves than other legions whose auras contribute less. Doomsday machine does get the biggest bonus from the aura since it hits harder than anything else, but I'm still not sure that's good enough.

    Thoughts

    It occurs to me that T6 towers don't feel very rewarding. With games only going to wave 20 I question how important T6 towers are if they aren't going to be noticeably impactful. Perhaps in this game version T6 towers should just be outright superior to any alternatives once you can afford them. It's probably too late in development but some towers might be better off with more changes, like Fenix. Then again gargoyle got a pretty big redesign. I mentioned this before but I like to envision a tankier Mech T6 with shorter range and a longer range leviathon that serves as a good range dps tower. That might just make things worse but I think it has potential. Shorter range Fenix might be better as well so it could better protect aqua spirit towers and start taking damage sooner, but Fenix needs more than just range adjustment.

    I feel that towers like millennium and Fenix have a hard time because they involve putting a lot of gold value investment in the backline, while only providing single target damage. Especially Fenix that relies on taking damage to boost it's damage. This can lead to diminished effectiveness of your more front line towers and makes the player seek out even longer range towers that can survive behind T6 defenses as the front line collapses or to ignore t6 entirely since they don't usually have the greatest damage output to begin with. Forsaken mitigates this somewhat by having summon contribution and stronger melee. Grove has an even better melee lineup and I think banana Haven has more potential regardless.

    I'm not sure mech and elemental T6 are strong enough or synergize well enough with the rest of their towers in a game version that only goes as far as wave 20. In 3X you had to spam doomsdays and Fenix even though they weren't necessarily great, because it was your biggest tower and you had to spend large amounts of resource without using up too much space. The same restrictions don't apply in legion td 2; unless the t6 is good/great you don't even need to use them at all. If Mech T6 isn't going to be a tank or a powerhouse it should probably get an ability. It was also the only T6 tower in WC3 that had no ability. Not to mention 825 gold into one tower might be a bit too steep.

    Players need more incentive to invest in T6 tower for this faster paced game. That involves them being good and working well with the rest of their towers. Just having a larger body isn't necessarily good enough. WC3 wasn't expected to be on the same level as a game like this and could get away with more flawed race design. Like I don't think you can get away with making a race like Beast that is insanely vulnerable to any wave with magic damage (hmm unless maybe it was super great on anything else...but no that's dumb). If the T6 can not be made too good then perhaps their upgrades can be what is improved since they are really hard to get due to cost. I don't want to cause a balancing headache though so feel free to just ignore me. It's no big deal :) ... It's surprising how long I took typing this out... :(

    Mercenaries


    Reserved - I need more time to analyse and get a feel for them.

    Waves

    Very High Risk to leak
    (10) grandaddy
    (20) Maccabeus

    I believe everyone can agree on 20. On 10 it is a bit more legion dependent. Grove can hold 10 pretty reliably but not Elemental. Forsaken it seems like a toss up and you really want at least 1 harbringer. I think it's a close call on mech as well. Leaking wave 10 is very punishing because of the lost gold, which also contributes to leak risk.

    High Risk to leak
    (11) Dire Toads
    (12) Mantis
    (14) Killer Slugs
    (15) Quadrapusus
    (16) Metal Dragons

    Somewhat legion dependent. All easily pressured with send. Wave 16 kinda forces the use of specific towers in legions like mech and forsaken.

    Moderate Leak Risk
    (3) Hoppers
    (4) Flying Chickens
    (5) Scorpians
    (7) Sludges
    (8) Quill shooters
    (9) Carapaces
    (17) Cardinals

    Can pressure opponents with send but it's only dangerous if they aren't prepared for it. Honestly 3-9 are all a bit tight if you are trying to income so send can cause issues.

    Low Leak Risk
    (13) Drill Golems
    (18) Kobras
    (19) Whale Cheifs

    Waves 18 and 19 are more challenging based on what legion you are playing. At this point in the game players generally aren't trying to send hard as well (they are saving for wave 20) and they are pushing max value in preparation for 20. Drill golems usually aren't a problem unless targets get switched a lot. Even these waves can be difficult with heavy send though.

    Very Low Leak Risk
    (1) crabs
    (2) Whales
    (6) Rockos

    There isn't much reason to leak waves 1 or 2. you should be built strong enough to reliably handle the wave and just about anything they can send. If you are using the wrong tower configuration you might get rolled over but that's an experience issue. Wave 6 isn't too challenging. However, I have seen a combination of chain stuns and target switches that caused players to leak. The whole stun thing is a bit strange since nothing else does anything like that. Almost seems like artificially increasing the difficulty a little. These are very low risk waves cause send along with the wave itself is unlikely to cause leak.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2017
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  16. Lagartootemido

    Lagartootemido Member

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    Game Version: 1.25a

    Fighters

    First of all, I did not try to actually move units inside of each power tier in an attempt to represent their power compared with each other across civilisations as I think that would actually require even more testing to base a solid quantitative analysis.

    A: Very Strong

    Proton
    Bone Warrior
    Dark Mage
    Green Devil

    Buzz
    Consort
    Canopie
    Whitemane

    Fatalizer

    The main reason why 3 out of 4 T1 fighters are here is just because spamming them is way too efficient for their cost. The rest actually gives great power for their gold, great power per supply and great flexibility throughout different types of waves. These should be the first fighters from each civilisation to take power from in order to bring more balance. That said, I don't think either of them really deserves any kind of nerf. I would rather see more power given to the weaker ones.

    B: Strong

    Rogue Wave
    Fire Elemental

    Gargoyle
    Doppelganger

    Wileshroom
    Antler

    Bazooka
    Leviathan
    Berserker

    Same as before but to a lesser extent. Worth noting that Rogue Wave and Fire Elemental are strong only when paired with each other.

    C: Balanced

    Atom
    Aqua Spirit
    Violet
    Mudman
    Golem
    Disciple
    Starcaller

    Bone Crusher
    Fire Archer
    Harbinger
    Nightmare

    Ranger
    Deathcap

    Veteran
    Pyro
    MPS
    Tempest
    Millennium
    Doomsday Machine

    What do all these fighters have in common? They simply give you what you expect them to give and are very reliable. They should not be touched in order to bring more balance inside a civilisation as well as among different civilisations. Instead, they should be used as baseline.

    D: Weak


    Windhawk
    Gateguard
    Butcher
    Head Chef
    Lord of Death
    Hades

    Daphne
    Honeyflower
    Banana Bunk
    Banana Haven

    Peewee
    Zeus
    APS


    Every time you depend on any one of these, be ready for some nasty surprises. Some of them might even work fine for a specific wave only to turn to absolute trash and wasted gold against other not so perfectly fit waves. Some of them simply don't give enough of what they were supposed to give.


    F: Very Weak

    Fire Lord
    Fenix

    Are you ready to be pulling your hair out of sheer disappointment?


    Mercenaries

    A: Very Strong

    Kraken


    It works better than tri-aura consistently across all waves. Is it intended?

    B: Strong

    Lizard
    Fiend
    Brute
    Centaur
    Four Eyes
    Ghost Knight

    You might think they won't punish you at first glance only to find out you have leaked half of your wave with what you thought was ok. What happened? Oh yeah, the mercenary in question just focused your fighters without ever getting attacked once and wrecked you ultra fast with tons of damage.

    C: Balanced

    Snail

    Dragonturtle
    Mimic
    Shaman

    These will all behave like you expect them to.


    D: Weak

    Safety Mole
    Dino
    Hermit
    Pack Leader

    Their auras should be stronger when combined together. Dino is just weak.

    F: Very Weak

    Drake


    Has anyone ever thought "Wow that Drake really made me leak this wave I though I was safe."? Me neither.

    Waves

    A: Very high threat to leak

    (11) Dire Toads
    (12) Mantis
    (14) Killer Slugs
    (16) Metal Dragons
    (18) Kobras
    (20) Maccabeus

    Very deceptive waves. Have the wrong fighter balance and leak half of any of them effortlessly. Have the right ones and leak anyways once in a while because of god knows why.


    B: High threat to leak

    (3) Hoppers
    (8) Quill Shooters
    (9) Carapaces
    (10) Granddaddys

    Even though these might give the same sensation of "Wow what has just happened?", they tend to occur only when you actually build or position fighters wrongly or receive an unexpected mercenary that changes the whole dinamics of the match up.


    C: Moderate threat to leak

    (2) Wales
    (4) Flying Chickens
    (6) Rockos
    (7) Sludges
    (13) Drill Golems
    (15) Quadrapuses
    (17) Cardinals
    (19) Wale Chiefs


    These behave as you thought they would most of the time.


    D: Low threat to leak

    (5) Scorpions

    Should be more dangerous.


    F: Very low threat to leak

    (1) Crabs

    Expected from the first wave of the game and all known variables.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2017
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  17. riqmarmes

    riqmarmes Member

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    Game Version: 1.26b

    Fighters

    A: Very Strong

    B: Strong

    C: Balanced

    Proton
    Atom
    Aqua Spirit
    Rogue Wave
    Fire Elemental
    Windhawk
    Violet
    Mudman
    Golem
    Disciple
    Starcaller



    D: Weak

    Fire Lord
    Fenix


    I prefer building mass disciples over fire lord and fenix because firelord/fenix's ability of mana shield goes to waste, he's not that good of a tank, and placing him in the front row gets him killed pretty quick so you lose a lot of dps, yet placing him in the back renders his mana shield quiet useless, building 3-4 disciples instead is much better. They can output much better damage bursts and they re viable against most waves thanks to the pure damage of the spell.

    F: Very Weak


    Waves

    A: Very high threat to leak

    B: High threat to leak



    C: Moderate threat to leak

    (3) Hoppers
    (4) Flying Chickens
    (5) Scorpions
    (6) Rockos
    (7) Sludges
    (8) Quill Shooters
    (9) Carapaces
    (10) Granddaddys
    (11) Dire Toads
    (14) Killer Slugs
    (16) Metal Dragons
    (20) Maccabeus --> depends on your race

    D: Low threat to leak

    (1) Crabs
    (2) Wales
    (12) Mantis
    (13) Drill Golems
    (15) Quadrapuses
    (17) Cardinals
    (18) Kobras
    (19) Wale Chiefs


    F: Very low threat to leak
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2017
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  18. LForward

    LForward Community Manager Staff Member

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    Game Version: 1.27

    Fighters

    A: Very Strong

    Disciple
    Mostly for boss waves because of the incredible 600 dmg
    Lord of Death
    Hades

    Their resummoing mechanism paired with the units not dying when new ones are resummoned feels too strong at the moment
    Buzz
    Mostly the stun/damage combination but already better than in other patches
    Whitemane
    Because of the Aura, only needs 1 of them basically
    Pyro
    His Aoe makes it possible to hold Level 1-4 with a single Pyro alone at the moment, only downside: he is much weaker 5 and 6, also 8 if there is a melee merc, 10 he is also weak and in general he gets much weaker in lategame so probably not even super OP, only good for starting


    B: Strong

    Rogue Wave
    Fire Elemental

    Combined they can just put out a lot of damage
    Mudman
    Golem

    Because of their tankyness
    Starcaller
    Important Aura and still a good fighter
    Proton
    Bone Warrior
    Bone Crusher
    Harbinger
    Feels strong, especially if you can get him early and combine him with a Dark Mage
    Butcher
    Strong Aura and also a good starter
    Daphne
    Only for boss waves, otherwise this unit is weak or even very weak
    Antler
    Very Strong combined with 1 Whitemane
    Peewee
    APS
    MPS

    Seem to be good Auras with still ok Damage
    Tempest

    Leviathan



    C: Balanced
    Atom
    Aqua Spirit
    Violet
    Fenix

    Dark Mage
    Fire Archer
    Gargoyle
    Green Devil
    Gateguard
    Head Chef
    Nightmare
    Doppelganger

    Consort
    Wileshroom
    Canopie
    Banana Bunk
    Banana Haven
    Veteran
    Bazooka

    Millennium
    Doomsday Machine
    Berserker
    Fatalizer


    D: Weak
    Windhawk
    Ranger
    Honeyflower
    Deathcap

    But maybe balanced because they grant Auras although you don't feel them that much
    Zeus


    F: Very Weak

    Fire Lord
    Getting it did not feel rewarding at all







    Mercenaries

    A: Very Strong
    Snail - Especially the HP feels way over the top
    Lizard - HP again, Dmg also kinda strong
    Dino - Way too much HP, tanks super good for DPS waves
    Pack Leader

    B: Strong

    Dragonturtle
    Safety Mole
    Hermit
    Four Eyes
    Kraken

    C: Balanced

    Fiend
    Brute
    Drake
    Ghost Knight
    Shaman - Boss waves = Very Strong

    D: Weak

    Centaur - Felt kinda useless, maybe because he has no additional features

    F: Very Weak

    Mimic - Stat wise but we all know it would be "very strong" if you keep income in mind aswell, overall this send is overused because you can get it much easier now.

    Overall Mercenaries felt kinda strong, you were able to afford them quite easily and big sends happened quite early


    Waves

    A: Very high threat to leak
    (8) Quill Shooters - Mostly because of the Combo with Dino send
    (14) Killer Slugs - Also a level where people like to save for

    B: High threat to leak

    (11) Dire Toads
    (15) Quadrapuses

    C: Moderate threat to leak

    (5) Scorpions
    (6) Rockos
    (7) Sludges
    (10) Granddaddys
    (16) Metal Dragons
    (18) Kobras
    (19) Wale Chiefs
    (20) Maccabeus - Depends on how fast/slow the game was and how much value the people have, with high value there is no real threat to leak

    D: Low threat to leak

    (3) Hoppers
    (9) Carapaces
    (12) Mantis
    (13) Drill Golems

    F: Very low threat to leak

    (1) Crabs
    (2) Wales
    (4) Flying Chickens
    (17) Cardinals - Atleast it felt like this and people never saved for exactly this level
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2017
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  19. ithion

    ithion Member

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    Game Version: 1.28a

    Fighters

    A: Very Strong
    Doppelganger
    Hades

    B: Strong
    Harbringer
    Head Chef
    Canopie
    Banana Haven
    Antler
    Fatalizer

    C: Balanced
    Bone Warrior
    Bone Crusher
    Dark Mage
    Fire Archer
    Gargoyle
    Green Devil
    Whitemane
    Millennium
    Buzz
    Lord of Death
    Banana Bunk
    Doomsday Machine
    Consort
    Wileshroom
    Honeyflower
    Zeus
    Bazooka
    APS
    Pyro - obviously very strong when the splash is working.. but it's unreliable (easily countered by tanky mercs).
    MPS - borderline weak
    Tempest
    Leviathan
    +entire element race

    D: Weak
    Berserker - will probably be a lot more usefull with mastermind than with mech. Has buggy behaviour issues though
    Nightmare - it's suprisingly bad without dark mage and healing aid.
    Butcher - might be better when he starts to behave reliably
    Gateguard - it's very rare that it makes two summons. The optimal placement for gateguard is very different from what's good for a
    Daphne
    Peewee
    Veteran

    F: Very Weak
    Ranger- Most frustrating unit. it's weaker than having buzz on levels like 3+4 which just feels super wrong and it's ability is not all that effective unless it's a boss level..


    Mercenaries

    A: Very Strong
    Snail
    Lizard
    Fiend
    Brute
    Dino
    Mimic
    Kraken
    Four Eyes

    B: Strong
    Shaman

    C: Balanced
    Pack Leader
    Safety Mole
    Dragonturtle
    Drake

    D: Weak
    Hermit
    Centaur
    Ghost Knight

    F: Very Weak


    Waves

    A: Very high threat to leak
    (8) Quill Shooters
    (14) Killer Slugs

    B: High threat to leak
    (20) Maccabeus
    (19) Wale Chiefs

    C: Moderate threat to leak
    (3) Hoppers
    (5) Scorpions
    (6) Rockos
    (11) Dire Toads
    (10) Granddaddys
    (15) Quadrapuses
    (16) Metal Dragons

    D: Low threat to leak
    (9) Carapaces
    (2) Wales
    (7) Sludges
    (4) Flying Chickens
    (13) Drill Golems
    (18) Kobras

    F: Very low threat to leak
    (12) Mantis
    (17) Cardinals
    (1) Crabs
    (21) Legion Lord
     
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  20. LuxÆterna

    LuxÆterna Member

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    Game Version: 1.28a

    Fighters

    A: Very Strong
    Rogue Wave
    Fire Elemental
    - Only as the combo

    Golem
    Hades
    B: Strong
    Violet
    Disciple
    Fenix

    Dark Mage
    Green Devil
    Nightmare

    Honeyflower
    Whitemane

    Veteran
    Peewee


    APS
    C: Balanced
    Aqua Spirit

    Atom
    Proton
    Mudman

    Bone Crusher
    Fire Archer
    Gateguard
    Bone Warrior
    Butcher
    Head Chef
    Doppelganger
    Lord of Death

    Consort
    Wileshroom
    Antler
    Deathcap
    Banana Haven
    Canopie

    Bazooka
    Millennium
    Zeus
    Pyro
    Berserker
    Fatalizer
    MPS
    Leviathan
    Tempest

    D: Weak
    Windhawk
    Starcaller
    Fire Lord

    Harbinger
    Gargoyle

    Daphne
    Buzz
    Banana Bunk

    F: Very Weak
    Ranger
    Doomsday Machine

    Mercenaries

    A: Very Strong
    Shaman
    Fiend
    B: Strong
    Brute
    Dragonturtle
    Hermit
    Four Eyes
    Ghost Knight
    C: Balanced
    Drake
    Mimic
    Snail
    Dino
    Lizard
    Safety Mole
    Pack Leader
    Centaur
    Kraken
    D: Weak

    F: Very Weak


    Waves

    A: Very high threat to leak
    (14) Killer Slugs
    (8) Quill Shooters
    (19) Wale Chiefs
    B: High threat to leak
    (20) Maccabeus
    (16) Metal Dragons
    C: Moderate threat to leak
    (10) Granddaddys
    (4) Flying Chickens
    (15) Quadrapuses
    (18) Kobras
    D: Low threat to leak
    (13) Drill Golems
    (5) Scorpions
    F: Very low threat to leak
    (1) Crabs
    (2) Wales
    (3) Hoppers
    (6) Rockos
    (7) Sludges
    (9) Carapaces
    (11) Dire Toads
    (12) Mantis
    (17) Cardinals
     
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