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Game Balance Tier Lists

Discussion in 'Balance Discussion' started by Jules, May 10, 2017.

  1. Diocletir

    Diocletir Member

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    Elo: ~1800 (lately plaing on my smurf 1500-1600)
    Patch: v2.32

    Units


    Rating from S to F.
    I'm mainly talking about MM though the units are not that much better in the Legions they just have their roll to fullfill there.

    S Tier: Overpowered. These units have a power level that is way above the curve, and I'm suprised they didn't get nerfed yet.

    Seaserpent / Deepcoiler : if a build containing just 1 units is viable, this unit is to strong!
    Doomsday Machine : No weak wave from 12-18. As long as you are ~ @value you will hold if u have 1-2 doomsady.
    Peewee / Veteran : The boost abilty, if used right, lets u hold far above your value.

    A Tier: Really strong, are partly defining the meta while not being broken.

    Grarl :
    The unit is strong by itself and with the delicacy helps u shift gold even while the enemy is saving.
    Headchef : Would never pass this unit. The heal Aura and heal Abilty makes it synergize well with bruisers and Tanks and u always have a few bruisers/Tanks.
    Fire Elemental : Easy Start with good workers. This start transitions good into other builds.
    (Edit 1: Fire Elemtal might be B Tier, like Naccho said ,but it is still my prefered start which is the reason i placed it in A Tier)
    Fatalizer : Strongest Anti big unit and the only Swift Tank which makes this unit great on 10, 13, 15, 16, 18, 20.
    Bone Warrior : Good early and they fill the spot of the t1 best (split unit).
    Kingpin : Great Buiser. At 100 stacks, Stats of a t5 while having the cost of a t4 and being a t2. Though you can have at most 2 of them.
    Starcaller : Spell to defend vs big units good backline DD stats and an Mana Regeneration Aura which works well with Fire Archer, Gateguard, Harbinger,Headchef, LOD, Hades, Disciple.

    B Tier: Balanced. These units are as strong as they should be while not defining the meta.

    Honey Flower / Deathcap : 5 worker start with the right support and ok mid game.
    Pyro : 5 worker start and good early push with the right support though their mid-late (10 onwards) is on the weaker side.
    Daphne : Good Anti big as well as good support. Though dont want many of them.
    Aqua Spirit / Rogue Waves : They have their roll and do fill that. Seems very balanced.
    APS / MPS : Atackspeed aura, which works even better with small units cause it also has flat bonus Dmage.
    Antler / Whitemane : 4 worker start with a lot potential to be very strong in the late game. The unit itself is a good mid / late game tank and the Aura makes it synergize well with other tanks / bruisers.
    Golem / Mudman : Good Fortified Tank. Realy strong if u get the Harden right.
    Butcher : Heals (on hit heals) are quite strong in the early game. It's also quite strong 6 which is one of the waves a lot poeaple liek to send.
    Hades: Good Late game Summoner.
    Pollywog / Seraphin / Devilfish :
    Not to sure what to say about this unit. It seems quite balanced right now.
    Wileshroom / Canopie : Backline Damge Dealer which is flying. Its quite strong with Headchef but rly weak on 11-12-16-17 which are waves often send on.
    Leviathan : Worse since this Patch, still fullfills its roll quite good but not to strong.
    Banana Bunk / Banana Haven : Strong in the early weak in the mid - late but upgrades into Heaven which is good ok mid and good late. Heaven forces to enemy normaly to not send 12 / 17 which can be good.
    Fire Lord / Fenix : Good Off Tank, best in the split. Very good on 15-18.
    Gateguard / Harbinger : You cant mass them and they have quite low HP to fullfill their roll as off tank. (They tend to jugle if u mass them and they get counterd by centaurs)
    Proton / Atom : No weak wave and can deal good Damage in the early game.
    Doppelganger : Strong with Headchef but weak without. This unit seems to be in a sweet spot right now.
    Bone Crusher / Dark Mage : Bonecrusher has a very good early but a very bad mid-late. Which makes it quite balanced right now. The Darkmagebuff seems to be on the weaker side right now and the movement speed is most of the time counterproduktive (sometimes units walk a short time stright into the enemy units after a kill. With Darkmage buff that is even worse.).
    Windhawk / Violett : Nothing to say here Natural - Impact flying DD with a bit of magic Damage.

    C Tier: Weak, but they don't necessarily need buffs since they are very good in fulfilling a niche.

    Rangers : Good Anti big as well as good support. Though dont want many of them and bad without spam / fast hitting units.
    Bazooka / Zeus : Impact Ranged DD with a bit Magic Damage.
    Ocean Templar : This unit is an okisch alternitiv for Headchef. Its heal is better on unupgraded units which makes its scaling worse.
    Gargoyle / Greendevil : Magic damage tank. Gargoyle is Ranged which makes that unit hard to position and Green Devil has Lacerate which ain't an abilty i want on a (t2) tank.
    Nightmare : Without support this unit feels quite weak.But it has on ok 4 worker start.
    Bounty Hunter : maybe its just me but bounty hunter is the start whith which i leak the most. Though i think this unit is fine cause the kingpin is so strong.
    Tempest : Its makes the Pyro 5 worker start the savest. Though with its best waves being 4 and 17 u dont rly need this unit.
    Millenium : Good on 6 and 9 and ok on 7. i believe this unit does quite fine for its roll.
    Lord of Death : A unit normaly not build bevor 15 (for 15) and can be usefull on 18 as well afterwards u want hades and bevor u dont want this unit.
    Buzz / Consort : Buzz and Consort are usable in some build but the other t1 units are just better.

    C Tier: Weak, not as weak as F-Tier but might need a buff cause there is a better option for their roll.

    Angler : I would never place this unit if im unable to upgrade it. They dont have a good wave in the early game and later they are just to weak.
    Disciple : For me this unit is quite underwhelming without a distinctive roll. I would pref semonthing like magic damage on Basic Attacks and the spell so that it has the roll as Anti 11* - 13 - 15* - 18* - 20.

    F Tier: Dumpster tier. It's so bad i wonder why they didn't get buffed yet.

    Empty. I didn't want to be to mean to Angler.

    Hope i didn't forget any unit.

    Edit : It's all my opinion, so you may disagree.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2018
    Seraphin, Nacccho, foliesseer and 2 others like this.
  2. Nacccho

    Nacccho Member

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    Don't think thats accurate. Nerfs finally caught up with Fire elemental, its way more fragile now.

    While aqua spam is still amazing.

    Gargs and Buzz are also pretty good, compliments some builds very well, should be at list b tier imo.
     
  3. Diocletir

    Diocletir Member

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    You are right about the Fire Elemental, it probably should be b tier. while i personaly agree that aquas are good i can't see them above b Tier.

    I agree that Gargs and Buzz do compliment some builds well. Personally i even start with Garg + Buzz sometimes. Thats the reason i placed them C Tier. But they still have problems like a weak Late and not a good mid. Gargs aren't good at fullfilling their roll as Tanks from 9-13 (which is good cause they are a T2 Tank) and buzz is an ok split but i pref Bones - Peewee or Pollywog for that roll and you normaly won't pick more than 1 T1. And C Tier doesnt nessecaryly mean they are realy weak, it means mainly that they fill a niche and are not a universally used unit.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2018
  4. Seraphin

    Seraphin Member

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    Game Version: 2.32
    ~1700 elo


    Fighters

    A: Very Strong

    Deepcoiler:
    This unit is very strong because of his cost efficient. Should be very weak wave 9 and finally it is not that bad. I think this is due to their damage on hit (220+). Also, it should not be particularly strong 12 and finally it is because of his ability (focused by one or two creeps then can dps all others units). If you get it in your roll, it could be a must-have.
    Doomsday Machine : Doomsday deals a huge damage on impact and is monstrously. As it was said, it is not particularly week between wave 11 and 15. I think this is due to how it is. Attack speed should be a bit more important and damage on impact should be less important. Like this, the unit won't 2 shots a unit wave 12. Another option should be to limit the tankiness of unit and force player to place it in back lane rather than in front. I still don't understand how this unit can be stronger than a fenix wave 15...It is a must-have if you get it in your roll.
    Peewee / Veteran : This unit is particularly strong because of the pressure you can get early with it. It fills a lot of build, it is obviously OP wave 3, 7 and 8 and the ability makes you able to push more workers. Also, contrary to Bone crusher for example, Veteran is particularly usefull mid and late game (wave 14-15 and 20). If you get it in your roll, it is a must-have


    B: Strong
    Grarl :
    This unit is not particularly strong as stats. It does not tank too much, does not deal too much either. However, because of its ability, it is very strong. Just with this unit, you have a flexibility in your build which is very strong. In early, thanks to this ability, you can easily get banana bunk or millenium, which makes it impossible to make it leak. During wave 9, you can get it then sell it again to get a Fatalizer for 10 for example. You can get it for wave 10 then sell it for an LoD for wave 11 etc... Maybe the ability should be a bit nerfed. Don't really know.
    Pyro : Pyro is strong because of its early game. You can easily push workers and it is still hard to make it leaks. Not sure it really deserves a nerf or just a little one.

    C: Balanced
    Pollywog
    Seraphin
    Devilfish

    Sea Serpent
    Ocean Templar
    King Claw


    Proton
    Atom
    Aqua Spirit
    Rogue Wave
    Fire Elemental
    Windhawk
    Violet
    Mudman
    Golem
    Disciple
    Starcaller
    Fire Lord


    Bone Warrior
    Bone Crusher
    Dark Mage
    Fire Archer
    Gargoyle
    Green Devil
    Gateguard
    Harbinger
    Butcher
    Head Chef
    Nightmare
    Doppelganger
    Lord of Death
    Hades


    Buzz
    Consort
    Wileshroom
    Canopie
    Honeyflower
    Deathcap
    Antler
    Whitemane
    Banana Bunk
    Banana Haven


    Bazooka
    Zeus
    APS
    MPS
    Tempest
    Leviathan
    Berserker
    Fatalizer
    Millennium



    D: Weak
    Fenix :
    Still don't understand how Fenix can be less strong than Doomdsay machine and less intereting than Hades for wave 15. I mean this unit should be completely broken for wave 15 and very strong wave 16 and finally, it is better to get Doomsday machine or Hades. That's not normal. Maybe the unit has the wrong attack type or maybe it is not enough tanky. Don't really know how to make it better but at the moment it is not enough strong I think.

    Ranger/Daphne : This unit is only strong for boss waves which is a bit sad. Daphne is not that bad for wave 6-7-8 but I will prefer so far to get aqua spirit than ranger for wave 7-8. Same for wave 11-12 and 16-17. Should get some more dps I think.

    F: Very Weak


    Strange unit :
    Kingpin/Bounty Hunter/Angler : Those units are very strange. The Bounty Hunter starts is not particularly strong (even maybe a bit weak) but it gives you the opportunity to stack very fast 150 aptitudes. If you don't get crushed before wave 8, you will be able to get a Kingpin more or less full stack for wave 9. Until wave 13, this unit is monstrueusly strong particularly if it is associated with aura like butcher or whitemane. You can combinate it with some T1 to tank brute and you will be able to under value to push workers. In another hand, it is hard to get a second kingpin and harder to get a third one. If the first one is A because of full stack, without full stack (or more or less full stack), this is unit would be D. Indeed, after wave 12, it is only strong for wave 17 and 19. But because it is not particularly interesting to get it in late game, it is not viable to get it to counter 17 and 19. I think this unit is not balanced at all. Sometimes it is too strong and sometimes too weak.


    Overall :
    I think units are almost balanced and it is probably the first time we got so well balanced units. Now, we should focus on wave and mercenaries adjustment (not that much needed).

    Mercenaries

    A: Very Strong

    B: Strong

    Dino : I think this is a bit too strong but this is due by the lack of another option. If you want fortified def mercenaries this is the only option after Pack Leader and if you want a tank, you have only snail and DragonTurtle as other option. I said it for a long time, I think the game need really more mercenaries.

    C: Balanced

    Snail
    Lizard
    Fiend
    Brute
    Dragonturtle
    Hermit
    Drake
    Safety Mole
    Mimic
    Pack Leader
    Four Eyes
    Ghost Knight
    Siege Ram
    Centaur
    Shaman

    D: Weak

    Kraken : Kraken should be the strongest mercenaries and, I think, an obviously send in very late game. However, at the moment, you will send a kraken in rare cases. If it should not be a perma send in very late game, then we need some others options.

    F: Very Weak



    Waves

    A: Very high threat to leak


    B: High threat to leak

    (16) Cardinals
    (20) Maccabeus
    I think those waves are a bit stronger than average. For wave 20, it could be understandable. However for wave 16, this is probably because of the leak of Pierce/Light armor units. Even if it is a bit stronger, I'm not sure it needs a real nerf. Maybe 2-3 dmg less on hit.

    C: Moderate threat to leak

    (1) Crabs
    (2) Wales
    (3) Hoppers
    (4) Flying Chickens
    (6) Rockos
    (7) Sludges
    (8) Kobras
    (9) Carapaces
    (10) Granddaddys
    (11) Quill Shooters
    (12) Mantis
    (13) Drill Golems
    (14) Killer Slugs
    (15) Quadrapuses
    (17) Metal Dragons
    (18) Wale Chiefs
    (19) Dire Toads

    D: Low threat to leak

    (5) Scorpions : After 30 games in 5 days, I have still never leaked this wave. Even if you don't have magic damage, this wave can be holdable easily. Because of the lack of options with 80-100 mythium, it is rare you want to send this wave. Most of time, it will be more interesting to send wave 6 rather than 5 which is a bit too bad. I think it could be interesting to up just a bit this wave and make it a better threat.

    F: Very low threat to leak
     
  5. Sharaal

    Sharaal Member

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    Nice you start a new balancing list for the current patch, like it. :)

    For the Waves:
    Why "(1) Crabs" is "Moderate threat to leak"? The only possible send on 1 is a snail and for every starting possibility its easy to check if it would hold a snail or not.
    Most of the starting builds are not able to leak on 1 and are happy to see a snail.

    (5) Scorpions I think feels only weak because of the common sends are 3/4 and so its just not enough Myth in the early game to get a good send on 5. But a surprising send on 5 is often not that bad if someone already build up for 6 because its an uncommon send on 5 which can result in good leaks.
     
  6. Seraphin

    Seraphin Member

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    I agree with you. I just set wave 1 in moderate to mean it does not need a nerf or a buff. But yeah you're right, it is almost impossible to leak this wave.
    For wave 5, you can do a send on 5. However, if you don't send 3 and 4 it will be obvious that you want to send 5. But 5 is still not string since you have a lot of tank for it available and still have a good dps for it. I don't think, at the moment, this is particularly strong to send on 5 comparing to 4 or 6.
     
  7. Wurakls

    Wurakls Member

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    You're right, but when you think that 5 is a miniboss wave, it's much too weak compared to wave 6. If you compare it to 15 and 16. If you leak Wave 15 both bosses and a shaman, it kills you despite 40% life. If you leak at 16 compared to 15, you survive.
     
  8. jitsuc4

    jitsuc4 Moderator

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    Just wanted to share my thoughts on units/mercs/waves. This is coming from a casual player (~1800), so YMMV as always.

    Game Version: 2.35.3

    In General
    I feel like flat damage bonuses make balancing really hard, since there's always some sort of extremely strong interaction. Given that you usually don't have all the combo pieces in a single game, it still feels like it's happening too often. Most dominant example is Mech, since you always have two sources of flat damage bonuses - Leviathan + Peewee combo, APS/MPS + Zeus combo. They just scale too well and negate mole sends completely. Take one of the combos and add Ranger/Green Devil and you end up with some stupidly high damage bonuses. PotA/Azeria probably belong in that group as well, but I haven't encountered/tested combos with her, yet. Also, since her value is much higher than the other units, it's also harder to commit to that combo. So, basically flat damage bonuses + cheap spammable units is an awkward combo, rendering most sends weak at best, useless at worst, considering most counters are high cost (GK/Centaur/Kraken) or tend to get sniped easily (Mole) on certain waves.

    Now, the concept of added damage bonuses is nice, of course. But it's having too much of an impact in some cases, I think. Maybe it's possible to tune the balance of the bonuses, but maybe they need some kind of rework. For example: a tiered cap of bonus damage, like T1 not being able to benefit as much from the aura as a T5 unit. Or think of a scaling damage bonus, if you will.

    Edit: Although such a tiered bonus would be adding unnecessary complexity and requires additional explanation through tooltips etc., so that wouldn't be nice as well and will probably be missed by some players and cause confusion.

    Fighters

    A: Very Strong
    Fenix: Fenix feels too strong to me. It's a strong unit on its own, but has some crazy synergy with buffs/spells. Vampirism basically doubles its DPS and grants sick healing with close to no downside (unless you're like an hour in the holding area). Benefits a lot from dark mage, leech auras and defensive auras due to prismatic shield. Overall it seems to have too many beneficial options compared to other units, while still being a strong unit to begin with. Its typings make up for it on certain waves, but might still need a bit of attention.

    Zeus: Zeus on its own is strong-balanced. But it synergizes too well with flat attack bonuses, so Green Devil, Ranger, APS/MPS make it stupidly strong. I've seen it hold crazy amounts of sends relative to value, which has no downside (e.g. like Vets losing out on 20g for boosting), with the right combo it's just straight up solid on any wave. It's not unbreakable, but still very strong and requires a decently big sized send. You completely negate the mole effect, usually even benefitting from bonuses still.

    B: Strong


    Pollywog
    Seraphin
    Devilfish

    Kingpin: Now, I think it's not inherently too strong, but just a huge variance in its effectiveness, which comes from death blow rng. So in some cases it crushes the wave basically solo, while in others it just soaks up some damage without getting a single heal in. Maybe it's balanced, but at least it feels to me too strong when last hitting everything, and too weak when not ever last hitting anything. I guess I just don't like the very high variance it currently can have, but I do like the design concept of the unit.

    Grarl: I think Grarl has a tad too much power, not stat-wise, but usage-wise. It adds a huge amount of flexibility to your build, while still providing two very nice upgrades, incase you don't end up selling it. While the flexibility is nice to have in the game, the combination of it + upgrades feels like the unit has too much utility.


    Ocean Templar: I think the flat regen is a bit too strong in combination with some units. Mostly that's Gargoyle/Green Devil, which by design profit a lot from sustain. Might need just some adjustment on the regen part, other than that I think the unit is in a pretty decent spot currently.

    Proton
    Atom: It feels to me like those two just provide too much power throughout the game. Used as a meat shield, they have no weaknesses early and still provide decent damage output. Even semi-viable as opener, since again, no typing-issues. Spammed the only counter is mole, which is hard to get early, other than that you're pretty much set.

    Hades: On its own I feel it's pretty balanced, but the synergy with T1 spam and many units in general, in addition to benefitting from mana regen auras quite a bit, it seems on the stronger side of things. Especially since summon spam is very efficient late game, where you have lots of units and there's a steady resummon rate, with the only counters being w20/21 and Centaur (which drops in effectiveness quite a bit on w19).

    Buzz

    Consort: Feel like they're hard to balance right. Either they're not used or tend to be kinda strong. I like them currently, but feel like they're a bit too strong for a T1, also since spamming them late is better than other T1 due to their on-death effect. Other T1 spam just soaks up hits, these two deal some magic damage in addition to that.

    Peewee: On its own it's a decent T1. The boost addes too much value, though, imo. Even more so, since it scales so well with flat attack damage bonuses.

    Veteran: Boosted Vets are very strong. Although you lose 20g per boost, which is quite considerable in some cases, it can render some sends useless. See the following examples for likely perfect use cases. It feels, however, like the Veteran boost adds too much value for its cost - and it's kinda hard to "fail-boost" them, but if you do, it weakens you a lot, which is fine.


    In this case I can't remember if all units were boosted, but a big chunk was for sure. Assuming they all were, that puts it at -100g vets, -30g from peewees, so it could've been ~2200 value with a fairly weakish setup on w14. The 130g from boosts add a lot of value temporarily, though as mentioned above, it means you probably shouldn't even send on w14 (unless peewee was kept hidden until then, you'd have no other info ofc).
    Peewee boost adds 90% attack speed, while Veteran adds 110% attack speed (which is possibly too crazy), so that puts the value up to an rough estimate (neglecting that some value is from hp, just basing it off of dps, hence very rough) of:

    2075 base + 6x25x0.9 (135 peewee boost-added value, even more since 5 are buffed by leaviathan! neglected here, tho, since lazy) + 5x115x1.1 (632.5 vet boost-added value) >= 2842.5 Value

    Keeping that in mind, it shows just how small the send was compared to the value at hand.

    boost-1.PNG

    As for this example, assuming all were boosted (not sure if peewees were, but vets 100%, so let's assume that):

    2325 base + 5x115x1.1 (632.5 vet boost-added value) >= 2957.5 Value

    boost-2.PNG


    Leviathan: Has too much utility. It's decently tanky, provides flying units with bonuses and has a decent offensive ability. Overall a bit too good imo.


    C: Balanced

    Angler
    Bounty Hunter

    Sea Serpent

    Deepcoiler: From what I've seen so far after the latest changes, I don't feel like Deepcoilers are too strong, since you need other units to tank for them and can break them just fine. It's a very unique build in regards to positioning, so maybe that's why some people consider them very strong, since you have to rethink most of your sends vs. them. To me that adds a nice variety of build options, that doesn't feel overwhelmingly strong.

    King Claw
    Azeria: Unlike the base unit, I feel like Azeria is in a better spot, even more so, since it's a nice addition to the wave 20 arsenal.

    Eggsack

    Hydra: Now this is a tricky one. I feel like Egg/Hydra as a concept is really good and fits well in the game. It creates a great dynamic of forcing opponents to send (or choose to ignore it) and provides a kinda high-risk high-reward situation. In combination with some units, though, e.g. peewee, it feels like it's too much of a coin flip as a starter - either you get a 4w or lower start against you or not. Given that it's not impossible to deal with, though, I think it's in a decent spot.

    Aqua Spirit
    Rogue Wave
    Fire Elemental: Even with all the recent changes, it's still decently strong. Pretty much goes to show how overtuned it was earlier. If you provide a meat shield and just have it off-tank some early, it's maybe a bit too good damage-wise, which melee units can not achieve.

    Violet: Feels more useful than Windhawk, but then again, the combination of the two might put it somewhat on the weaker side.

    Mudman

    Golem
    Disciple

    Starcaller: In combination with summons, it gains a lot of worth, so that might even put it on the stronger side, since spam usually still is pretty strong without too much of counter options. Might change with added mercenary variety, though.

    Fire Lord

    Bone Warrior

    Bone Crusher: The Brute regen bug aside, it feels like BC is too strong early game, but falls off really hard mid-late to make up for it. Given the nature of early push > later push, since you benefit from the income/myth earlier, it might be a bit too efficient early game and considering it's an upgrade, maybe shifting a bit of early efficiency to mid might be a good thing. Although I feel like the design of the unit seems to be just that, a good early option.

    Dark Mage
    Fire Archer: Like BC, it feels like it's a bit too efficient, especially on w3/4, but loses usability mid-late.

    Gargoyle
    Green Devil
    Gateguard
    Harbinger
    Butcher
    Head Chef

    Nightmare: Feels like it's fallen off as a starting unit quite a bit and as a result is rarely seen in MM. Although stat-wise I think it should be decent still, like on w7/8. But due to its "melee-squishyness", its usability on w8 falls rapidly with most setups, since it will get sniped easily. Mid-game I feel like it's the same issue, you have no real way to protect it on w11/12, so kinda hard to get a use out of it.

    Doppelganger: Mostly the same story as with NM, just some waves later. Although with Butcher/Head Chef/Vampirism the value rises immensely, so in some setups it comes close to unkillable without a major commitment. Since that's on the rare side of events though, it feels like it needs some attention to be seen in games more often.

    Lord of Death

    Ranger: Seem fine on their own. In combination with some units they have too big of an impact, though (e.g. Spam, Zeus).
    Daphne: Seem fine on their own. On single high threat targets their efficiency might be a bit too high, though (mostly noticeable on boss waves, w13).

    Canopie: Feels better to use than its base variant, but still kinda weird to have a unit start at 50%. Always makes me feel like I'm losing out on value.

    Honeyflower
    Deathcap
    Antler
    Whitemane
    Banana Bunk
    Banana Haven


    Bazooka
    Pyro

    APS
    MPS: The units feel balanced, but some combinations they enable don't. See introductory text.

    Berserker: Feels alright on its own, possibly a bit too good w6. But in combination with Mech it adds a bit too much efficiency imo.
    Fatalizer

    Millennium
    Doomsday Machine: Feels to me decently balanced atm. It certainly has strong points, but it's possible to counter. Again, the combination Mech provides feels a bit overtuned.



    D: Weak

    Priestress of the Abyss: Feels a bit too weak. It's not really a viable start, it's kinda awkward to get early game, since it doesn't feel like it should be a ranged tank, so weird 7/8 even though it has considerable hp compared to other ranged units. Magic damage is wonky early game as well, unless you start with it.

    Windhawk: Feels kinda weak to me, but tbh, I haven't used them too much. Just seeing them on opponents, though, I feel like they could use a slight buff still.

    Wileshroom: Can provide a 5w start. Feels a bit weird to use, though, since you want it far in the back to benefit from regen the most, yet still tank some to make use of the regen even further. Can't put it mid-frontline, since then it'll take too much damage for the regen to be useful.

    Tempest: Considering its ability, there's only w4 and w17. Current merc line-up only has DT, Drake. If you see Leviathan, Tempest, those don't seem that far up in your priority list of sends. So it feels like a lot of value is lost to its ability, which is hardly ever useful. On w4 it's very nice, though, maybe even a bit too strong. That still leaves you with a unit you basically only want for w4.

    F: Very Weak


    Mercenaries

    A: Very Strong

    B: Strong

    Brute: Aside from the buggy interaction with some regen, Brute still feels quite dominant throughout the game. Opposed to Hermit for example, both non-income mercs, it doesn't fall off mid-late, since it still provides big utility, in some cases the utility even gets better, e.g. against few units+high dps or big targets (slowing down a big chunk of value with just 60 myth). The situation might change with more available mercenaries, that might provide other utility, so Brute isn't the "only" option anymore.

    Safety Mole: Given that you have to add towers as the game progresses, the utility of mole only grows stronger with every unit added. So there's some cases where it's really strong, but it rarely feels like a wasted send, if you can afford it. Given that it's double dipping vs. some damage (e.g. reduces 10 damage from banana reflect, since it's flat+%-based, which are considered two sources), it might also get stronger with more added units, since the nature of those is still unknown.

    C: Balanced

    These mercs seem good in certain situations to me. I have been considering them all in some game or another and they neither feel too strong nor too weak to me.

    Snail
    Lizard
    Dragonturtle
    Fiend
    Dino
    Drake

    Four Eyes: This is possibly the only exception from above's statement, since targeting makes or breaks the unit. If you split with spam, and 4e chews through small stuff first, it's wonky. If you split and it locks on the big target semi-instantly (like after first small unit dies), it's super strong. For example: I've seen (including customs repeating some situtations) setups holding up to leaking ~50% on w13, which feels like the variance is a bit too high. Maybe it's worth having a specific targeting preference for the 4e (whatever that may be), so it's a bit more consistent to anticipate what's gonna happen, e.g. holding to leaking a bit (up to let's say 20-25%), but not on the spectrum of holding up to taking 30-40% king damage.

    Ghost Knight
    Siege Ram
    Centaur
    Shaman

    D: Weak

    Hermit: The regen just falls off too hard late game, although it can be an extra king spell necessary. But 6 flat regen just doesn't feel like it's worth in most cases. So I feel like it's only just a filler spot mid to late, if you can spare the myth.

    Mimic: I rarely ever use Mimic, since in most cases i prefer other mercenaries, either for utility (Brute) or for added targets. Mimic reads like it should take care of few squishy targets, which in most cases is either spam or single high dps units. I feel I'd rather send Brutes in the latter case, whereas the former seems like the only decent choice, if I can't afford Centaur to clear spam.

    Pack Leader: Not exactly weak, but kinda feels like Hermit, with the bonus it provides going in the filler spot mid-late. It's feels really nice on swarm waves, of which there is only a single one (w16) you can afford pack on. The added wave dps can be nice in some cases, like w12. But I feel like the extra boss damage could be removed and no one would even notice. Maybe that design can be reworked at some point. Maybe instead of doubling the bonus on bosses, it could have some other utility, increased attack speed (flat or %-base). Also it might be worth to disable pack on w13 :p. Maybe there are some cheesy strats possible early game, which people just didn't bother to try too much.

    Kraken: Rework already announced, so I'll wait to see that. Currently the 400 myth just doesn't feel worth in most cases, unless it's against a heavy spell damage build, then again, you'd have to be able to get it out, and usually you'd want some other stuff in those cases as well. A single Kraken usually doesn't do that much, at least that's what it felt like to me.

    F: Very Weak


    Waves
    For me waves are in a decent spot currently, where I find it hard to put them in a single category. I feel like you can prepare for a couple of them with a given build, while you can't for some others with the same build in most cases. This leads to your legion/unit choices having a good impact.

    A: Very high threat to leak

    B: High threat to leak

    (13) Drill Golems
    (14) Killer Slugs
    (15) Quadrapuses: This opposed to w5 feels like a mini boss wave.
    (18) Wale Chiefs
    (19) Dire Toads
    (20) Maccabeus

    C: Moderate threat to leak

    (3) Hoppers
    (4) Flying Chickens
    (5) Scorpions: The mini boss spawning so far in front feels sketchy. Since it's quite easy to kill (without taking tank merc abuse-cases into account, which I didn't notice after the latest changes), it doesn't feel like a mini "boss" at all. It has no special ability, it's just 4 scorpions merged, which makes it kinda lackluster. Although not targeting it first showed how big of an issue it can be, so I'm not sure what I'd change about this.
    (6) Rockos
    (7) Sludges
    (8) Kobras
    (9) Carapaces
    (10) Granddaddys: I put this in moderate, although it feels like it gets leaked in many games, but with the new mechanic of awarding gold based on missing hp, it's just not that big of a deal, even when leaked (unless you leak moderate-high hp boss(es), then it hurts quite a bit). It does however feel appropiate for a boss wave.
    (11) Quill Shooters: With the addition of legion spells, this wave's threat heavily depends on available spells. Sometimes you won't consider it at all (e.g. loan), sometimes it's the go-to wave in a game (e.g. along with w12 incase of venture, overwork, giant snails). Overall I think it's fine, though.
    (12) Mantis
    (16) Cardinals
    (17) Metal Dragons

    D: Low threat to leak

    Those two shouldn't be too high threat imo, but I like that it's possible to leak when people greed or try cheesy stuff. Although in some cases it's kind of a coin flip on how the lanes are assigned, like what start sends into/receives from what start. Not sure what to do about that, though. Personally I like the concept, e.g. since you decide to go for a slow start and can't punish a greedy start. You'd have the option of choosing another start as well, so that's fine for me.
    (1) Crabs
    (2) Wales

    F: Very low threat to leak
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018
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  9. Seraphin

    Seraphin Member

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    Game Version: 2.35.3

    In General
    Fighters


    A: Very Strong


    Zeus: same tought as Jitsuc
    Peewee
    Veteran
    : I just don't even know how Jitsuc could put those units in "Strong" Category. At the moment this unit is a "must-have" in your roll since it's just incredible as T1 particularly with his ability. However, it could be due to the Wave 3/4 7/8 and 14/15 format. A lot of people will want to send wave 3 or wave 4 and Peewe and Veteran will be good for those both wave. Then, your opponent for sure cannot send 7 and 8 since Veteran boosted are too strong also against those wave. So you will be able to greed very easily. Concerning wave 14, you can just spam it to hold the wave and if your opponent decide to go 15, you will still have a good temp. Also, at the moment the combo Peewe - Grarl - Eggs are just completely retarded. If you can have this, you cannot leak before wave 14 basically if you play well.



    Grarl : Agree with Jitsuc. however, I think this unit is incredibly strong considering his all advantages. Don't need to greed anymore since you can have some Grarl and sell it then for 90% (and lost 16 gold per grarl). However, the ability could not a be a problem is the unit was not that strong. As Nacccho said (I think), the unit should not hold wave 2 alone I think.


    B: Strong


    Pollywog
    Seraphin
    Devilfish


    Ocean Templar: Agree with Jitsuc

    Proton
    Atom

    Buzz

    Consort
    Leviathan: I think the unit is okay but because of his attack/def type, it's just a bit too strong.

    C: Balanced

    Angler
    Bounty Hunter

    Sea Serpent
    Kingpin
    Deepcoiler
    King Claw
    Azeria

    Eggsack

    Hydra: I think stat's unit are balanced. However, this is the gameplay which is a bit too hard to play correctly (even for 1600 elo players). I still think this unit is a hard coin flip. If you hold two waves successfully, your opponent can cry since he has probably lost the game. If not, you can cry since you probably have lost your game. Indeed, to build it, you decide to not push workers (some put less pressure to your opponents) and bet of the next waves. However, the award is huge if it is a success and the punishment is horrible if it's a fail...I think it could be interesting to decrease the "gap" between success and fail eggs.
    Really you have to nerf the combo eggs + peewe !!!!!!!!!! It just kills all the fun to play when you have to play against this !!

    Aqua Spirit
    Rogue Wave
    Fire Elemental: Even with all the recent changes, it's still decently strong. Pretty much goes to show how overtuned it was earlier. If you provide a meat shield and just have it off-tank some early, it's maybe a bit too good damage-wise, which melee units can not achieve.
    Fenix: I don't agree with Jitsuc here. I think Fenix has a right place at the moment

    Violet: Feels more useful than Windhawk, but then again, the combination of the two might put it somewhat on the weaker side.

    Mudman

    Golem
    Disciple
    Starcaller
    Fire Lord

    Bone Warrior
    Bone Crusher
    Dark Mage
    Fire Archer
    Gargoyle
    Green Devil
    Gateguard
    Harbinger
    Butcher
    Head Chef
    Nightmare
    Doppelganger

    Lord of Death
    Hades : Still think LoD and Hades are not well balanced. Their ability is particularly strong in late game. However, the unit are just too weak for wave 15 when it should be really strong against this wave like Fenix are. I guess it could be interesting to remove some power of summoners and give it to the Hades and LoD.


    Ranger
    Canopie
    Honeyflower
    Wileshroom
    Deathcap
    Antler
    Whitemane
    Banana Bunk
    Banana Haven


    Bazooka
    Pyro

    APS
    MPS: Stat's unit are balanced except the ability with is really too strong with Zeus/Ele/Rangers/Gargoyle etc....Also, this combination with peewe is also very strong.

    Berserker

    Millennium
    Doomsday Machine



    D: Weak

    Priestress of the Abyss: Agree with Jitsuc

    Windhawk: Agree with Jitsuc

    Tempest: agree with Jitsuc

    F: Very Weak


    Mercenaries

    Well I won't comment mercenaries since I think at the moment we absolutely need more mercenaries. However, Mimic is incredibly useless at the moment, Pack leader and hermit should scale a bit more in late game (at the moment you just use it if you have nothing better to use). I think Mimic could cost 120 only and change some stats.
    Pack leader and hermit could had a %. Kraken's ability could be stronger I think. Like 70% would be a very good up without changing his stats. But I still wait the rework.


    Waves
    At the moment, I just feel wave 12 just a bit weak. And the Wave 16 and 18 feels like they are useless against the king except if your opponents leak very hard. Usually, you will prefer to send wave 17 or 19 to finish your opponent.[/QUOTE]
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2018
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  10. Nacccho

    Nacccho Member

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    v2.41b
    Ill just give the tier S and A here. I don't think there are many unplayable units anymore, currently peewee(thank the lord) and lions(im ok with that) should be the worst.

    Tier S:
    Banana bunk/haven: Everybody picks this. With grarl is a great start, as long as you dont have peewee u can hold 180 sends on 6 with 6/7 workers. Most of the games you dont even have to worry before 10.
    If you dont get grarl, getting them out on 7-8 is the way to go, and you should be set until 13.

    Kingpin: Bh/angler t1 start, early kingpin can hold pretty much even gigantic sends on 7-9, and to leak it on 10 ur gonna need to be huge. First vulnerability is 13.

    Doppel: Good enough start. It is probably the best unit of this meta, but it does rely on some synergies(headcheff/vampire/hero) to reach its full potential. It's vulnerable 5 and 9, but its almost negligible, easy enough to cover it(specially if ur forsaken).
    And its a power house on ALL of the game defining waves, 12,13,14. While also being pretty fucking good 16-17. Oh and its gigantic on mid aswell.

    Headcheff: This is the most "niched" here, as it isn't much on its own. But it allows soooo many units to reach the next level(Haven,Nm, Phoenix,Kingpin), and i just never skip an oportunity to pick it.

    Tier A:
    Aquas: T1 start, with great push potential if people "allow" you too. It isn't that good late game anymore, mainly because 13 is so meta. But aqua spam is still viable and pretty strong 16-17.

    SS/Deepcoiler: I think latest change made it more balanced, but its still great. 6 to 8 are a problem tho, because it just murders everything, but seeing as it is vulnerable on 5 and 9 now, im ok with that. It's weaknesses became more accute.
    With that said its pretty fucking great at its role, as a sniper and dps. Can allow you reaaaaally good push eartly-to-mid game, and play a huge part on ur late build even if you don't have many of them.

    Phoenix: With 13-16 being so meta, phoenix is huge right now. I just didn put it on tier S because after the latest collision and aggro changes, it got harder to get "perfect value" out of it. And with the mercenarie pushing waves to the side problem, you can leak 50%+ on 13 or hold against the exact same thing.
    Also, it has reaaaaally clear-cut weaknesses on 14-17. But top players know how to use them perfectly, so its right up there to be tier S.

    Tanks, golem/whitemane: Well, they're the games best tanks, so yea.

    Grarl: Second closest thing we got to a tank, allows bunk and hydra start. And its also pretty good on its own early + a decent early aura in templar.

    Hydra: Its situationally HUUUUGE. You rely a lot on ur "supporting cast" tho.

    Pollywog:
    Best t1, if witch wasn't a thing, it would absolutely be tier S. Its a great start, its good on all waves until 7, where you can swap all into devilfishes and will still be decent. There aren't many weaknesses to them early, and they are the best units to use on split, being 15g and ranged.

    Atom: Really, really similar to pollywog. It is actually better overall, stronger, its just not that good on its own early and it costs 20g. It's very good effective hp, can be used as dps in some rare cases, also great split material.
    Stats are inflated imo.

    Berserker:
    Great carry on waves like 6-10-13. Good swift off tank.

    Doomsday:
    It has dropped of on popularity, but it's still pretty good.

    Disciple/Starcaller:
    I'm tired of writing, but y'all know starcaller is amazing. Great on its own and it has tons of good synergies. They're not bad at any wave late game, super versatile.

    Harpie:
    Well, i think its pretty balanced after the nerfs. The new mercs keep it in check, and its pretty weak on 13.
    But yea, spin fiesta is pretty strong until 12, and does require some big sends to leak even on weak waves if you have a balanced line up.

    MPS:
    Not much to say, good aura, good stats.

    Windhawks/Violets and Wiles/Canopies: 'Lower tier A", they're both pretty similar, really good early game, with great push potential and tough to leak early on without really big sends, but they drop off hard late game.


    ~~
    Might be forgeting some stuff, but thats mostly what i like to play and think its the stronger. Also i considered the meta as being heavily leaning into 13 and 16, not because the tier S units are bad 13, but they're way too dominant 12.
     
  11. Nacccho

    Nacccho Member

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    Oh, mercenaries.
    I like the current balance, and i like having real strong options for mercenaries.

    Witch and Ram are clearly the strongest. The rest are all situationally good.

    The worst are mimic and centaur. Ah, turtle is also pretty bad, but it has some uses early game.
    Mimic armor/attack type just fucks it up. It only matches up perfectly against phoenix and azeria. And it isn't like it's reaching those units and killing them effectively. Can be a good send into mech on 6 sometimes, but its VERY situational.
    Centaur is kinda pointless, witch + mole is a thousand times better on 99% of the cases, being only worst against deepcoilers.

    Turtle sucks. Its only good against pyros and hf, and even so it sucks.
     
  12. Muaddib

    Muaddib Member

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    @Nacccho
    Can't really agree about Mimic. It has semi-tank roll and awesome AS and dmg. I even use it vs. Pyros, mass Polly, Gargz, NM ( early ), LoDs and it works just perfectly. Try it in some customs, you will find it useful, trust me.
     
  13. Seraphin

    Seraphin Member

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    If I can, you answered to a post from 6th November...Units have changed a lot since the patch of November !
     
  14. Muaddib

    Muaddib Member

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    It seems that the time has been stopped for me :D

    My apologies.
     
  15. Garthogg

    Garthogg Member

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    Since Shrine's gate minion spam is halved, it would be nice to have back centaur's aoe. See attached picture, almost 0 leak till wave 16, only 2-3 witches can overpowered this spam cause of it's skill.
     

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  16. Dimlhugion

    Dimlhugion Member

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    I agree we should get Aoe-taur back, but not because of that pic. 14 workers on wave 15, with the duo also struggling for economy, means you would be in a world of hurt late game (provided your opponents weren't in the same boat). It depends on the game obviously, heavy leaks early and/or lack of save-send early will yield higher worker counts across the board, but honestly you should be aiming for a minimum of twice your worker count BEFORE wave 14 ends in order to have a healthy enough economy to sustain the late game pushes.
     
  17. Cornep

    Cornep Member

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    Nono, we dont need AoE-taur, nature armor tank is good.

    What we need is a yolo-bomber merc, like 140M that runs like Usain Bolt and explodes like the Little Boy did