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Is this normal for you ?

Discussion in 'Balance Discussion' started by Seraphon, Sep 6, 2018.

  1. Seraphon

    Seraphon Member

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    Just a question: Is it normal yellow can hold with that build wave 4 against 120 send ?

    I mean, regarding Attack/Def type of all, Pyro (DPS unit) should be 90% effective (100% dmg but takes 115%), Peewee is also not good (deals 115% and gets 115%) and it is a tank, finally, Tempest which is an DPS could be considering as good unit (deal 120%, has his ability and gets 115%).
    I guess we could say more or less this composition is supposed to be ok-ish on wave 4.

    Now when we look at value, Yellow has 395 value when recommanded value is 390. However, the recommanded value does not consider there was a leak wave 3, and I was on 7 workers at the end of wave 3. So the system should not consider that I'm able to send 120.

    We could think that I send bad mercenaries. Snail is strong against peewe and Tempest. Same for dino. So even if it is not the best send, it should be a correct send.

    To conclude, Yellow finally holds easily this wave (pyro still had 50% hp). Just how it could be normal?

    thanks for people sharing their opinion

    Legion TD 2 Screenshot 9-6-18 10.20.06.png
     
  2. jitsuc4

    jitsuc4 Moderator

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    It's 360 for 4. Brutes should work better vs. tempest pyro. Pyro splash and tempest anti-air work really well together on this wave as well. Anything other than brute/hermit won't diminish the aoe damage dealt, so you definitely want them over pure tank mercs. Also, 395 on 4 isn't really low value, even vs. that kind of send I think.
     
  3. Seraphon

    Seraphon Member

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    Well I don't completely agree with you. I mean, tempest could hit first tank (means dino) same for peewe. Also, compare with Teal build. Teal build should be ok-ish also. He has 415 value so 20 value more than Yellow and still leak (at least a bit). So even if we can consider there is splash damage from pyro, the aoe from tempest here should not considered since it should first focused tank.

    However, it finally focus mobs first. This change all since, with this send, only mobs deal real damage from pyro, but the dino is absolutely not focused (just focused at the end of wave and by peewe).

    Also, I didn't say but peewes were not boosted. I still think this build should leak with this send. I mean, I don't consider that is normal to old with this build.
    That was intentionnal to send a dino rather than an hermit. Wanted to talk about this since a long time :) but of course, hermit is better here since Dino don't tank anything.
     
  4. Marchombre

    Marchombre Member

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    That's because you sent more than 1 tank.
    What prob happened is you got 1 Snail focus, then his units hit the wave creeps, leaving dino untouched.

    I think he would have leak a lot more with dino + lizard, because dino would have been focused first.
     
  5. jitsuc4

    jitsuc4 Moderator

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    The tempest ability shoots a flying unit every 0.33s for 9 pierce, so vs w4 that's ~32.7dps vs. the wave, even if it targets the dino first. The pyro aoe will also always hit the wave, regardless of what its actual target is.

    Look at this for example (note that there can be some variance with leak values, but you get the idea). The strong point of the build is the high aoe damage, so tank mercenaries aren't really effective.

    upload_2018-9-7_7-38-22.png

    Note: I agree with you that it's too strong in some way, since early game aoe usually means you can clear the wave and just leak the mercs, even if you're undervalued. The same applied to honeyflower on most early waves, since the aoe would kill the wave, unless you sent a hermit. There's no cheap counter to early aoe builds, I guess that's why they're so strong and can clear with lower values than single target builds. (Considering leaking only the merc is basically clearing, since you're probably on higher workers and the extra time benefits you)

    Teal doesn't have any aoe though, so targeting the dino first actually hurts him quite a bit vs. the wave. He also doesn't split, which would probably benefit his single target only build immensely, especially since he has a fire archer that doesn't tank until the end, so a lot of regeneration value wasted here. E.g. something like this to pull more creeps off your left side. Note that even now the fire archer won't tank, but the wave movement is more beneficial for teal. This early in the game, you ideally want your archer to semi tank some damage to have your frontline survive longer and utilize the regeneration.

    upload_2018-9-7_7-48-48.png
     
  6. Seraphon

    Seraphon Member

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    I think I didn't express correctly. I know and I understand why Yellow didn't leak and why Teal leaks (but thank you for your explanation). I wanted to say that I consider this build should not be able to hold that well the wave.

    Indeed there is aoe damage for teal. However, I noticed that it is easy for yellow to clear the wave since all creeps are regrouped. then, aoe dmg from Pyro hits more or less all creeps here!! Also, here actually Dino does not tank at all. I mean, even if all units focus the dino, all creeps are still hurt !! :O

    I think this is just too strong. As I said, considering how theorically (Attack/Def type) this build should be not that good on this wave, it is just amazing how it holds so easily. I'm not sure it is just due to the power of aoe build. Probably, the range of the wave is not enough or don't know.

    No he don't leak either. As I said the problem does not really come from the tank. Even if snail are not here, the dino don't tank completely.
     
    jitsuc4 likes this.
  7. Gaetor

    Gaetor Member

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    100 value more than blue, holds 80 value worth of sends more.
    Looks fine :p