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King focus considering foureyes

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by IQ_999, Sep 6, 2020.

  1. IQ_999

    IQ_999 Member

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    Hmm I would like to ask for an explanation of the kingfocus especially in terms of foureyes in lvl 15.

    There were a lot of spots in the past where i thoght foureye-focus is underrated by the king. And after having a lvl 15 spot this time i am pretty sure it is.

    in this case we had 2 bosses (lvl 15), 80% and 90% and 2x Foureyes with nearly full hp + hermit on the king. Sum small units as well but not relevant.
    Giant Quadrapus DPS: 440*1,14 =501,6 - 9000HP
    Foureye-DPS@start: 65*2,38=154,7 - 2500HP
    As an easy logic example we can say, that 3x Foureyes should release more DPS than 1 Giant Quadrapus - considering that their dps increases fast. Lets make it easy and say that 3xFoureyes have together exactly same DPS as 1 Giant Quadrapus. But instead of investing full 9k Damage on the boss , you could use it on the Foureyes, what would in the end reduce the damage dealt to king by the same amount like killing one boss - but stepwise, so after one third of the time the dps dealt to king is already reduced by 33% - aso.
    So if we say 3xFoureyes would have same hp like 1 boss - this would mean:
    Time----------Focus Foureyes----------Focus Boss:
    33%----------100%--dmg-----------------100%---dmg
    33%-66%----66%---dmg-----------------100%---dmg
    66%-100%--33%---dmg-----------------100%---dmg
    --------Sum:--200%-dmg-----------------300%---dmg (dont be condused bei the % - just the relation in end is relevant)

    This means in fact focussing If we focus the foureyes instead of the boss, we will get only 200/300=66% of the dmg on king compared to focussing a boss.
    [Or to be more correct when focussing the boss until its dead we get 2x300%=600% while the other way we get 200%+300%=500%. so we have 500%/600%=83%dmg - that is 17% less dmg in the scenario where we only have 3xfoureyes+1boss!!]
    This is not considering, that foureyes dps is increasing fast - AND not considering, that 3xFroueyes have less HP than a Boss.

    I would highly recommend to overwork the formula in terms of Focus considereing Foureyes - I think considering their dps increasing and "low" hp later in the game there is barely a spot for not focussing it first.
    It is definitley not worth to wait until the dps is higer, than the dps of other units.
    In our game before the 2nd boss got killed, the dmg-numbers of the foureyes were 165. thats 392,7dps still increasing. So when killing a boss needs a while, there is no reduce in overall dmg even after killling a boss, when foureyes compensate by their dmgincrease - that is definitley BAD Focus (no offense).

    I dont know if ur formula in considers DPS/hp when doing the focus - this would be important in my eyes - especially in races, but it definitley does not consider the dps increase of foureyes - and i think it does not consider dps/hp. So i would like to recommend an overwork of King-Focus as Feedback in terms of DPS/HP.
    Thanks for your time reading :)

    Edit: Thinking about those dps/hp spots that are especially relevant in races it might be interesting to have different modes for the king. While usually the king would kill the mass with using an AoE a 2nd time, so he keeps focussing a big unit to reduce overalldmg dealt to king, this becomes pointless when he willl die before he can use 2nd AoE and cant kill the big unit as well - so in such a case it is better for the king to take out dps by killing small units and mb gain 0,x seconds for the race - so probably it might be interesting to make an option where a team can switch kingfocus between "Race" or "least dmg"
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2020
  2. IQ_999

    IQ_999 Member

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    Same problem in Lvl 10 btw.
    if you have 1xFoureyes and 1x Full HP Boss, the boss gets focussed.
    While the Froureyes have 2.500HP and The Boss got 10.000HP.
    Lets make it easy Time to kill Foureys=25 and Time to Kill Boss=100 (same relation)

    Boss DPS is 434
    Foureyes DPS is 155 (without increase)
    so if focus Boss first u have time of 100xBoss und 125xFoureyes =100*434+125*155=62775
    If focus other way round: 25xFoureyes and 125xBoss=58125
    So foureyes focus would definitley be less dmg on boss!
    This is not even considering the dps-increase of the eyes! ;)
     
  3. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    Thanks for your feedback and math.
    It's not quite that simple.
    • The king does 20% current health damage per attack, which makes it better to hit high health targets
    • The king does area-of-effect damage, which makes it better to hit high health targets
    If you record some realistic examples of the king having poor target selection, it would be easier to make improvements.
     
  4. IQ_999

    IQ_999 Member

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    Thank you for the answer and the information - I didnt knew those 20% current Health dmg per attack. Sadly It is hard to test since we cant do the countertest by manuelly controlling king.
    The last time I had a spot where enemy team definitley shound not have died in lvl 7 the king killed 2 small creeps first before targetting the foureyes.
    Am I right when I think that king is waiting until dps of foureye ramps up until it is more dps than the dps of other towers? Whenever I see a foureye on king - the king first does at least 2 attacks on other units. this is 2 attacks to kill the foureye later at a point where it deals maximum dmg.
    The problem I see is - that the king should consider the dps of the foureye before it dies - because that is the dps it will deal, when focussing other units instead. But thats hard to do of course.
    Few days ago I had another example - but that was last time i didn't record for sure xD
     
  5. IQ_999

    IQ_999 Member

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    Well this might be the worst example I have so far, since king is upgraded and it is just one boss,but it should be one where we can do the math.

    (sry cant link it always ends up in what u see above-so i posted URL ith an underline after the https)
    https_://clips.twitch.tv/ObliqueCleverKoalaPanicBasket

    Some Math:
    The last hit done by the Foureyes deals 165dmg. Starting from 65, this should mean 2415 dmg dealt to the King by the foureye.
    Killing the foureyes at the beginning would have needed 2 hits.
    during those 2 hits the foureye could deal 4-5x damage resulting in (65+70+75+80+85=) 375damage. So the foureye itself would have dealt (2415-375=)2040 damage less when killed first before king uses first spell.

    Giant Quadrapus deals 440 damage per hit - it must be able to do 5 Hits needed to make the Focus on boss better then killing foureyes first. The boss needs 0,88sec per attack. so five attacks are 4,4sec. That is not the time we invested in killing the foureyes.

    This is as i told the worst example. If we have more than 1 foureye and more than 1 boss and maybe less attack on the king, this ramps up alot more. But this one is good to do the math I think, since it is only 10 seconds and we can view in 0.25 speed. Even if we have to use 3 hits for the foureye it seems worth.

    In this case, we invested 1 hit to kill the foureyes, but had the boss on nearly 0 HP where it could attack once more earlier - so the one hit invested less on the foureye, would have been 1 hit less on the boss due to another AoE as well. So in this case the boss would have been able to deal 2 more attacks I think - maybe even 3.
    The moment of King death. there were only 3 normal Quadrapus left - dealing 110 dmg per hit.with nearly same attackspeed like the king. so they could have done 6 more attacks until king cleared. thats 660 dmg.
    We remember we could have gotten 2040 dmg less by the foureye. the boss would have dealt 880 or maybe even 1320 more dmg. + 660 from the 3 left quadrapus is 1980 - maybe one more hit of them? im not sure - but with king regen this woulda been really close and maybe not yet dead.

    Another interesting point i noticed in this clip: when the foureye dies and we get the money. it needs a bit but there comes an additional dps instance of 165. dealt after we got the money for it's death. There are alot spots when an autoattackanimation is nearly fully done, but the unit dies and we dont get the dmg dealt - sometimes feels like 100% animation is done but unit dies before dmg is calculated. In this case the dmg is still dealt - and foureyes has not a slow projectile. is mercenary dps dealt at beginning animation and towerdps at end?

    I think this is even one example - where better kingfocus could have survived.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020
  6. IQ_999

    IQ_999 Member

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    Hey I dont wanna spam about this in the wrong thread. Yes, I noticed that king priorises foureyes in other waves as well but bosswaves are questionable (but that was the purpose of this tpic anyways). I just tested the granddaddy example u gave there. If King focusses like he does boss first, the foureye deals an overalldmg of 5015(last hit was 230) to the king. If it is focussed first, it just deals 1235(last hit was 125) dmg to the king. This means we have a difference of 3780. So as long as grand daddy is not dealing additional 3780 dmg to the king because it is focussed later, then focussing the foureye would be correct.

    in my test the king needed 14 seconds to kill both and spent about 13-14 autoattacks so lets say 0,9 autoattacks per second? so the king has to spend (5hits/0,9)=5,55 seconds on killing the foureyes first.
    Granddaddy attacks 3,77x per second. and deals 115/attack. so in 5 seconds we have 5,6x3,77x115=2427,8 dmg to the king.
    Thats far away from the 3780 dmg necessary to focus him first.

    Maximizing king dmg is important - but in the end, all what counts is minimizing the dmg recieved by the king. I mean we could leave the boss on 1hit and wait him die to AoEs - but of course thats not worth. Giving the foureyes some extra high dps hits cuz we ignore it and wanna take advantage of the AoE, when the dps is low compared to the boss at the beginning, this is nealry the same.

    I really don't wanna offend. I like numbers, doing math and since this community seems open for suggestions/feedback i try to give this when i think there is something not correct. You said you think in most cases it's better to focus bosses before foureyes. I would really like to have an example for that. As long as the boss is not below half HP i cant imagine this case. And up to now we are talking about one foureye. when we get two of them or even 3 there is no way that focussing a boss is better, since we have to kill another foureye before we can kill the last one that ramps up to hell.
     
  7. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    We increased how quickly Four Eyes gets targeted next patch. Let us know how it feels, and we can always make more improvements. Thanks for your math and feedback.