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My take on why Forsaken is inherently overpowered

Discussion in 'Balance Discussion' started by Freshairkaboom, Dec 9, 2017.

  1. ithion

    ithion Member

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    Well I tried with that synergy part. The fact that they have a lot of synergy does not mean they are stronger since it's taken into account when the base stats are balanced.

    For example berserker has much more hp/gold compared to nightmare bc of the butcher heal and so on.

    When it comes to AOE vs single target I think AOE can be very powerful, it can save you a lot of attacks by your dps fighters. For example, honeyflower hurting the entire wave can make wileshroom save 1 attack per creep and thus you get rid of the waves dps faster than you would with only single target. You can also avoid leaving units with very low hp that just survives forever and destroy you just because they don't get targeted and so on. AOE is obviously not always better, bad against bosses for example. But a race having no AOE at all is a weakness, not a strength.

    Lod is widely considered the least useful and by many also the weakest t6 and it's a real problem you don't really want any until 19/20 and then suddenly you want a lot of them but simply don't have enough gold.
     
  2. Robosquad

    Robosquad Member

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    That's your personal elo. more people playing a legion shouldn't change the average elo for top players. For an individual your statement is true however as a community this faction has more elo meaning they have a comparably much higher win rate.

    If I took the elo for all the players of each legion this would be correct. however, I took a certain number so that wouldn't be a variable.for the top 50 average to be higher that means they all would have to be performing better than the top 50 of the other legions.

    This is able to be seen in every game. The problem is there is no real way to tell. however, at the top 50, we can safely assume all players are trying there best to play optimally and have the best build path. This is also why I showed the elo even without the gods of ithion and isotrop (massive respect to both btw). because they have had so much time to play to figure out the best way.

    I hope I'm not coming across as jaded or disrespectful in any way. I know there is room for me to be wrong. for example, ithion said
    which I have no idea if that is correct or not. I'm certain ithion has nothing to gain from lying to me, but I have no idea where he is getting his information from. From the top players, it looks like forsaken has a way higher win rate than others.
     
  3. ithion

    ithion Member

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    What I meant was the elo was higher because of more games and not because the legion was stronger.
    If you win 80% of +16 games and play 100 games your elo for that legion will be higher than 100% winrate and only 50 games played.

    You would also have to check how many games each player had with each legion and you can't account for individual skill.

    [/QUOTE] I got it from Jules, who gets it from data gathered from all games played. But as I said, I don't know where he draw the line for "high elo".
     
  4. Freshairkaboom

    Freshairkaboom Member

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    So, by having an effect, it's worth its money? You also have to consider that you're giving up single target dps. You have a point in that a honeyflower may be useful, I'm not saying they don't have any uses and are worthless. I'm giving my argument as to that with the right positioning, and with practice and knowledge about the RNG parts, single target simply reduces enemy dps much faster than AoE + single target, which doubles to give your units longer lifespans as well, meaning they get to deal even more dps. If for instance two nightmares focus different targets, even if it's not optimal clearing speed, after a few seconds, they will most likely clear a creature each. Meanwhile, one nightmare and an AoE unit of equal gold value would maybe clear one, and then set up more kills for later on in the wave. Even if eventually the nightmare will need one or even two less auto attacks to kill each creature, each of those creatures are alive for just a while longer because they're not being focused down.

    I have yet to see more than one enemy unit surviving on low hp and therefore dealing more dps due to no AoE, and even with AoE, there's no guarantee in those few occurences, that they will have dealt enough damage with their AoE that they would die. The benefit of single target, in my opinion, just straight up reduces so much enemy dps so early in the wave, that it makes up for any hypothetical situation that doesn't even occur that often. As my earlier point, consistency is key. Single target may have rare occurences of super weird RNG that puts it in a bad spot, however there's no guarantee some AoE would've solved it at all, especially considering what you would give up in single target/tank value to get that AoE unit.

    Again, it's not that I think AoE units have zero value. I just don't think they're worth much more than their value, while I think two single target units would consistently make them higher value. It's the tradeoff I'm worried about.
     
  5. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    I wanted to quickly chime in about two pieces of data.

    1. The rating of players at the top of the legion leaderboards reflects the power and popularity of that legion historically, not currently. Forsaken has historically been one of the most popular legions. Element has historically been slightly weak.

    2. At 1400+ rating, here are the win rates of each legion on patch v1.63:
    • Element: 52%
    • Forsaken: 51%
    • Grove: 51%
    • Mech: 51%
    • Mastermind: 47%
    Data doesn't mean everything, but it's valuable to keep in mind when discussing game balance.
     
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  6. EndOfFears

    EndOfFears Member

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    So... was spending some time gathering data from the Top20 players and trying to get some graphs out of it.
    Please be aware that I ignored parts when a Legion wasn't played for 20 or more games.

    I'm leaving the discussion to you guys though, even when Jules already made the "big point" here. ;)

    Kind regards.

    Winrates per Legion.jpg Winrates per Legion per Player.jpg Games Played per Player.jpg
     
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  7. Robosquad

    Robosquad Member

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    I see where I was mistaken. I misunderstood the elo system, I thought it had more to do with player to player rank than to wins gained.
     
  8. Freshairkaboom

    Freshairkaboom Member

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    That's interesting for sure. However, that doesn't tell the whole story of legion balance. It might simply mean that the average Joe who plays element is slightly luckier when it comes to RNG. I don't see a definitive reason why element should be better. Perhaps it has something to do with discovering builds. If people think it's easier to follow an Element build for instance than a Forsaken build, and then of course, use those builds to get more workers early and snowball the game. There are more factors at play than win rate, though it does play a role obviously.

    I'd be interested to learn where Element has an edge that matters on other legions specifically. I still think single target damage simply outvalues all other types of damage, and the fact that their T6 is technically not needed until 19-20 is a plus in my book, seeing as in Element and Grove they're almost a necessity in early waves, leaving them with a question of whether to save an entire round for them, or simply not being able to afford them when needed. Also, the synergy raises individual values in lategame through the roof. Forsaken can easily hold wave 17 for instance, with the recommended value of the previous wave, given a good setup.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2017
  9. EndOfFears

    EndOfFears Member

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    Did you really just... answer your own questions? o_O

    Listen. I know that I might know sh** about the game and high elo.
    But whether or not a Legion is "OP" largely depends on the average NEED for its capabilities, not its potential (if you can never make use of it).
    If a Legion has the potential to just stomp anything beyond wave 19 - okay, so what if 99% of games end before that?
    If that very Legion is at best average or even weaker than any other in these 99% of matches, is calling it "OP" simply because of that 1% justified?
    If other Legions are capable of ending the game before said Legion has its' power peak - isn't that just "fair enough"?

    Indeed, if Elements is so easy and stable to build that someone can snowball the game rather easy - why not call this "OP" instead?

    Kind regards.
     
  10. ithion

    ithion Member

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    Well, Element has a lot of RNG with disciple/starcaller ability, if fenix is focused by a lizard or a heavy mob (the ability uses up mana both times) and the most frustrating of all, aqua combo focus.

    And dunno but when would one need to save for a firelord/fenix? I see people and do myself get firelord earliest on 10 and not much saving going on there. On 13 u easily afford firelord and most of the time upgrade one.

    T6 for grove is sometimes used on 12, otherwise their strong waves are 16-18 and then they are useless ofc. But most games ends before 19 anyway so in the wast majority of my games I have no use for forsaken t6 at all.

    I think element helps win races on 19 very often. Maybe that can account for 1% of the games. I know I myself have won several games lately because of us having one element player acting as advanced delay for king in mid on 19 where Element just outshines everything.

    This is also based on thousands of games so rng/luck etc should not matter since it will be spread out equally over time.
    Aps/mps is the best lategame synergy combo. Simply because the dps they add to your build increases every time you build a unit. Mech is designed to be a late game monster and aps/mps is the reason. A butcher/headchef combo can provide aid to two doppelgangers just as well as 1 but most of your setup won't have use for it. And the hades/harbinger combo kicks in rly late and most of the time you won't have much if any use for it.

    Dark mages use does not increase exponentially either.
     
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  11. ithion

    ithion Member

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    I def think that aqua combo, honeyflower/deathcap and pyro are worth their cost yes.
    I get what you're trying to say, I simply don't agree with that a race lacking AOE makes it inherently OP. Atm I think Jules has reached a point where they are all very equal. Optimal play is to have a mix of races and winrates for each legion are extremely even. Forsaken has some of the heaviest weaknesses (imho) , especially w13 on top of that. And you can't push harder for income with forsaken than with other races either. So despite your theories there really isn't any data or real scenarios in game to back up the claim that forsaken is inherently OP.

    I'll just leave it at that=) Always good with discussion threads though.
     
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  12. Freshairkaboom

    Freshairkaboom Member

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    Got any examples of what heavy weaknesses Forsaken sit on? Other than the lack of needed synergy when playing Mastermind, which isn't really a Forsaken issue anyhow.
     
  13. Robosquad

    Robosquad Member

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    It depends on your elo but at around 11-1300 most people spam harbinger. Most people think that the dog spam makes the legion op. if you just save a little and send centar or GK you'll pretty much destroy them every time. at a higher elo than that you're going to have to look at their build and try to counter it.
     
  14. Freshairkaboom

    Freshairkaboom Member

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    Not sure why people would think Harbinger spam is OP with centaur being what it is, but okay. So basically that's an example of a subpar strategy being counterable. Doesn't say much about Forsaken's strength to be honest. Grove isn't bad because bee spam strat is counterable either.
     
  15. ithion

    ithion Member

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    13 is the most obvious one. And that it do best in long battles making it more vulnerable
     
  16. Freshairkaboom

    Freshairkaboom Member

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    I don't see why 13 is a problem. I haven't noticed any difficulty in ripping apart those junk heaps with my doppel, seeing as their low numbers mean less chance of them actually surrounding my units and hitting the doppels early. I have way more problems with 11, where if they send dinos, doppel often runs ahead and gets ripped apart. I see your point, since their main defense is either arcane or fortified, and none of them are particularily good vs impact waves. However, I've never had a huge problem with that particular wave either, and I've played vs 1600+ players loads of times, with strong sends too. If they don't send, I can easily hold 13 under value.
     
  17. Mentat

    Mentat Member

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    I think gateguards should be buffed and upgrade still needs nerf.
     
  18. von Oberstain

    von Oberstain Member

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    Neither single target nor AoE carry inherent advantage. Typically, numbers used decide this, or special factors like Aqua forced AoE damage-split vs Bosses. Single target sometimes allows more even distribution, say on single opponents, but then again there could be a massive overkill damage done with single target, which is compensated in AoE cases.
     
  19. GvR Mr Mister

    GvR Mr Mister Member

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