1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

New Player Experience

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Roshi_IsHere, Jul 5, 2019.

  1. Roshi_IsHere

    Roshi_IsHere Member

    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    3
    So far what I've done is watched a few videos online on how to play Forsaken. Played some tutorial games as Forsaken and a few classic games. Found something halfway decent to dive into ranked. First ranked game. Mastermind is the only choice. Proceed to get rolled repeatadly because I have no idea how most minions work so I just build the wrong thing and get pwned. About 15 games later I finally am getting my feet under me, but that tutorial was a massive waste of time and so was practicing vs. AI. All the youtube content is out of date since they wiped out legions for some reason?

    /endrant
     
    Dimlhugion likes this.
  2. Bluejin

    Bluejin Member

    Messages:
    171
    Likes Received:
    125
    Trophy Points:
    43
    The tutorial is finely crafted, the game is just inherently too difficult for new players. But do not worry, the devs are working hard on making the game easier for your sakes. Last patch, they removed supply to make you think about one less resource, and they are working hard on an autobuild system : Once implemented, all you'll have to do is join the queue, and the game will do the rest as you watch yourself climb the ladder. To inhibit abuse you'll have to pass random quick time events though to make sure you don't just leave your laptop to do something useful in the meantime.
     
    Troll Eater and reW like this.
  3. Dimlhugion

    Dimlhugion Member

    Messages:
    73
    Likes Received:
    84
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Pinging @Jules and @Lisk cuz I feel it'd be quite detrimental to the game if this topic goes unheeded.

    @Brandon Zink I think it's unfortunate your experiences were less than ideal, to put it mildly, but I encourage you to stick with the game in Classic mode, where legions are still enabled and quite viable. You won't gain ELO, true, but there's still a win-loss counter in Classic and iirc the game takes that into account when forming the matchups, so it's not entirely random who you get paired with and who you face off against.

    Bluejin's scathing sarcasm aside, there have been some, shall we say, controversial changes recently that have rocked the community, but I still think there's a game worth salvaging in LTD2. But if the dev's are really interested in acquiring and retaining new players such as yourself Brandon, I think they should look at this topic and take it to heart. We need to better communicate the rules of engagement, rather than altering (or outright eliminating) said rules. We need to keep veterans interested too, so that there's someone to learn from.

    Personally I think we need more of a cash flow. Push the 2.0 infrastructure out ASAP and then get a shop up and running. Skins, sound effects, lane flair, anything really. Custom voiceovers for UI messages. Weekly legion buy-ins for ranked. Point is, I paid what, like $20 USD for this game, 2 years ago? And I've been getting a free ride ever since. If just 10 people buy a single $2 cosmetic each, that's an entire new full game purchase you've just generated AND it could come from people (like me) who have already purchased the game on top of that.
     
  4. Roshi_IsHere

    Roshi_IsHere Member

    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    3
    My main point of frustration is having to learn a new format for my first games of ranked. I need atleast moderate knowledge of most of the units and waves. With Squadron TD and the Legion factions I had less to memorize. Any particular reason they were disabled?
     
  5. reW

    reW Member

    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Because following a guide with a race in a competitive environment is pretty stupid and boring. People were playing mech, which was kinda OP back in the days, and just do the same builds over and over again. Its just boring to play against something like this. Where in Mastermind you have to chose between a pool of units and combine a strategy to get through the game. This takes much more skill and thinking process than repeating the same build.
     
  6. Roshi_IsHere

    Roshi_IsHere Member

    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    3
    I respect that, but I think we should get to choose a faction or mastermind. Mm is probably better anyway.
     
  7. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,709
    Likes Received:
    1,993
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Hey @Roshi_IsHere, welcome to the game! We like Mastermind being the primary way to play the game but also know it can be overwhelming, which you experienced. Do you have any recommendations on how we could have smoothed your transition into Mastermind? Would it have been better if legions weren't enabled in Classic queue to force you to try Mastermind before jumping into ranked?
     
  8. Schwingeling

    Schwingeling Member

    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Hmm let new Players play at least one Time every leagion and then intorduce mastermind at the end of the toutotial?
    I have to say i never played the toutorial, so i dont know what new players learn...
     
  9. Dimlhugion

    Dimlhugion Member

    Messages:
    73
    Likes Received:
    84
    Trophy Points:
    18
    "Tak reflects the subtle turning of the world. It is a mirror we hold to life. No one wins a dance, boy. (...) A well-played game of Tak reveals the moving of a mind. The objective isn't to win, but to play a beautiful game." ~ Bredon, The Wise Man's Fear

    I am "that guy" who plays the same legion or two every game. I enjoy forming a coherent, static strategy that I can attempt to employ from the outset, tweaking it occasionally in order to adapt to the game-by-game situation (perhaps I won't build an egg on 12 if my opponents have been saving since 9 for example) but overall enjoying a process of continued refinement. I like knowing exactly what towers are available to me from the get-go. I even make it a point to ignore the reroll option because I like to make do with what I have, rather than gamble on getting the clutch coverage.

    Does it cost me games to play this way? Sure it does. But to me, the objective isn't to get the highest ELO, but rather to play a beautiful game of Legion Tower Defense 2. Continued marginalization of that element would severely impact my enjoyment of the game.
     
    Themryon likes this.
  10. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,709
    Likes Received:
    1,993
    Trophy Points:
    113
    I'll look to lower the Mastermind requirement from level 3 to 2 to give players an earlier chance to explore Mastermind before jumping into ranked.
     
  11. HomeSnakes

    HomeSnakes Member

    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    As a (former) new player, I remember that I enjoyed playing Forsaken and working on really tweaking a strong and interesting defense that was competitive in ladder (this is easier said than done; the game is very dynamic). I think eliminating the option to play a legion in normal mode has buried the unique flavor/theme/style of each legion and depersonalizes a new player's experience with the game. Atlantean and the one after looked very cool to me when they came out and I considered learning them, but I enjoy the challenge of ladder, so I just didn't bother. MM has no personality, style, or character, which is an important part of the new player experience. There isn't enough content yet, and so not enough spaces to really become intimate with how a particular legion works and form a "bond" with a compelling playing experience.
     
  12. Mick

    Mick Member

    Messages:
    251
    Likes Received:
    211
    Trophy Points:
    43
    EpvpDani likes this.
  13. EpvpDani

    EpvpDani Developer Staff Member

    Messages:
    666
    Likes Received:
    228
    Trophy Points:
    43
    That actually sounds really fun but we already have issues to keep up with the tutorials because everytime something major in the balancing changes we have to adjust the tutorials so they are still beatable. But I like the idea of having a daily challenge or something like that, it would be just some additional upkeep cost with changing balancing
     
  14. Troll Eater

    Troll Eater Member

    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    3
    I guess good job on recent changes, not only you lost 50% of player base, but also gave yourself more work with new tutorials, incredible xD
     
  15. Roshi_IsHere

    Roshi_IsHere Member

    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Maybe I missed why... But why were legions removed from ranked? I'm the kind of person who has always prefered static forms of play over dynamic. It's what made me originally fall in love with Squadron Tower Defense and wanting to relive my good experiences from SC2 led me to this game. Is it too hard to balance the legions?
     
  16. Themryon

    Themryon Member

    Messages:
    552
    Likes Received:
    228
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Yes. There was always a race OP and people that played mm were bashing on races and vice versa, depending on the patch. Some players also said that it is boring to play against because race guys dont change up their build, but thats kind of a lame reason imo. With them removed i think it was a good choice. Maybe if there is a race ban option they could be reintroduced in ranked
     
  17. Dimlhugion

    Dimlhugion Member

    Messages:
    73
    Likes Received:
    84
    Trophy Points:
    18
    It wasn't even necessarily the issue of any particular legion being OP (although there certainly were some in the past - like patch 2.X Mech - which utterly screwed the balance into oblivion) so much as it was the fact that the developers of this game have always wanted Legions to be a "learning tool" and for MM to be the "go-to" for high-level play. Ideally, as Jules has said before, we would have separate queues for every conceivable game mode, and then everyone could be happy - but the playerbase is far too small to accomodate so much compartmentalization.

    So they did what people do in an imperfect world - they made compromises. Allowing legions to continue to be in the game was important (paramount in my eyes), but removing them from ranked brought the devs closer to their "MM or bust" goal. As much as I disagree with that, I can't fault them for following their vision on how the game should work. It's their game, not mine.

    Personally, I don't care much about in-game rankings to begin with, so losing legions in ranked wasn't a deal-breaker for me as unranked 4v4 still allowed them and was - still is - just as popular a game mode. Removing legions from unranked though, would be a step too far imo, especially given how you can turn any legion into a "mini MM" with the new reroll mechanic.
     
  18. Roshi_IsHere

    Roshi_IsHere Member

    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Seeing those reasons I'd have to respectfully disagree with the value of removing legions from ranked. I see where they are coming from, but at this stage in the player base I feel like they should be catering to new players more than grizzled vets. If they make mm slightly better than legions, but still leave them as options I feel that would be a good place to be at. New players won't just get slaughtered a few times and alt f4. I see both sides, but I think with growth in mind letting new people hop into ranked quicker is good for the game.
     
  19. Pilferer

    Pilferer Member

    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    3
    On the subject of Legions in ranked, I agree that most new players should learn a legion or two first before playing mastermind. I know this is the way I learned to play the game. As an experienced player now I do not want legions in ranked mode. But for the sake of the new players which are really needed I think you should reenable them in ranked. Or maybe make it so games with an average elo over a certain number say 1600 or something disable legions. Legions are great for new player and fun, I enjoy playing them sometimes in 4v4.