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New Player Explosion

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by SiegeMentality, Mar 9, 2019.

  1. SiegeMentality

    SiegeMentality Member

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    Look, I get it. This is what we need. We need fresh blood coming in to keep the player base fresh and shake things up. However, I'm raging hard at some of the burning stupid I've been subjected to lately. Here's some ideas...

    4v4: If I get one more absolute failure in 4v4, I'm going to eject out of my seat and be sent into orbit. I cannot even express some of the ridiculous garbage I've seen in 4v4 lately. My suggestion is that in order to queue for 4v4, they have to have level 7. It is simply not fun to queue for 4v4, get in game and be forced to carry an entire team every wave only to fail later because you've been overcompensating for your team. I realize that it's a casual experience, but each player should be aware of basic shit like... harpies are not front line units.

    Ranked: If one should fall into the 1200 to 1400 range, you WILL be partnered with level 3 - 6 bronze players repeatedly. You will be asked some very basic questions. You will be forced to carry often, and you will continually lose rating because you're carrying. Since the last sale went on, I have lost more games than I've won. Nearly every load screen, I tip my head back and stare at my ceiling while breathing deeply.

    When I first bought this game and was figuring things out, I fell to 900 rating. (Yes, I am aware that I could have gone on youtube and had other people tell me how to play a video game, but I prefer to figure things out for myself.) I was not mad at my 900 rating, and when I started to get the basics down, I shot up to 1400 very quickly. So quickly, that a player I was matched with often noticed and asked me what I'd done.

    I am aware that new players are now starting at 1k. However, if you queue when Germans are actually sleeping, you'll end up matched with those 1k players often. Make it stop. Start all brand new players at zero. Yes, zero. By the time they start figuring things out and shoot upward, they will not be dragging regular players that want fair matchmaking down.
     
  2. EpvpDani

    EpvpDani Developer Staff Member

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    See, in my opinion this exact mindset is part of that problem. Did you try to lecture the players and teach them? Did you give them advice and tell them how to improve?. How are new players supposed to know how some specific setups or units work when they are overwhelmed with so much new stuff? You say they will start figuring things out but if nobody tells them they will keep doing the same mistakes.

    In the end you have two options in those cases: either you don't care about it and then also dont complaint about bad players and just ignore it or you start training new people and give them advice and hope they will do better next game, even when theyre not on your team anymore.

    Lettings people play casual games at lvl 7+ sounds a bit too hard for me, if you want to do a experiment, you could let us set your account back to level 7 and you gonna try to play just bot games until youre level 7 and unlock casual/ranked games and see how long you will play the game. Imagine how frustrating it must be for players who cant play that much each day and how long it would take them to get into pvp if they want to.
    Also letting the elo start at 0 will probably break the elo system (huge elo gaps which would make match making even worse). If we wanted to do that everyone would have to be reset around 0 and in the end it wont matter if its 1000 or 0 then, its really just a numbers game. Thats just not how the elo system works
     
  3. SiegeMentality

    SiegeMentality Member

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    All the time. I see players falling below value, I ping the recommended value. They ask me questions, and I'll answer them to the best of my knowledge. I don't troll. Unfortunately, there aren't many players that are open to advice. They feel as if they're being critiqued.


    Dani, I'm level 22. Getting from 0 to 7 is not hard. From your tone, it sounds like you think I'm being unreasonable.


    But they could get into pvp, among themselves in ranked at 0 to 1200ish. Did you think this through before responding? They'd have the option to join ranked, and they'd be ranked so low they'd be fighting among themselves and learning the basics before they join the upper ranks of players that have been around awhile. Thus reducing the frustration of people like me.


    That would not break the elo system. They'd be swimming in the little pond together before they jump into the ocean. The point is, once they learn the basics they will quickly rise in rank and join the rest of the population ready to compete.
     
  4. Dimlhugion

    Dimlhugion Member

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    I honestly don't think you realize it's a casual experience. You need to tone down your expectations. The "you must be this tall to ride" bar necessarily needs to be low in a casual setting, or else there won't be anywhere for casuals to go.

    Levels are a measure of time, not skill. You can play strictly against easy bots AND lose every single match and still reach level 7 eventually. That wouldn't help.

    What I think would help, is perhaps implementing a "floor/gate" system into the ELO, such that once you passed threshold X on your peak, you cannot fall below X - Y until the next season starts, unless it's via inactivity decay. There could be multiple such thresholds; once you reach Gold rank, you can't fall below Silver. Once you reach Diamond, you can't fall below Gold. Etc.

    Inactivity decay would need to be ramped up a bit, but I think this would help solve the "I'm at risk of going into ELO hell from bads" issue you are having. Of course, the easiest thing to do would be to adjust your perspective rather than expect the game to change to conform to your perspective, but in lieu of that a gate system might be a decent compromise.
     
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  5. EpvpDani

    EpvpDani Developer Staff Member

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    My point was not that its hard or impossible to reach, it would just take a lot of time that not everyone has because of work/school/other real life tasks and that you have to invest a lot of time to get from 1 to 7 just to get access to casual games which are essentially a place to try and learn stuff, not to tryhard. Imagine starting a new game for the first time and having to invest several days or weeks into bot games until you can play against other players. It's not impossible, just not fun. Its cool that you reached level 22 but you have to consider how much time you spend on that and how many games you played each day. Not everyone can invest that much time into a specific game, especially because LTD2 is not the only game that exists.
    Also like Dimlhugion said the level doesnt say anything about your skill. For example Jules recently shared a story where he met someone who invested a lot of time already and was playing and trying for weeks but literally dropped to the last place of the ladder. He messaged him, duod with him and tried to each him some basic tricks which improved his games

    While I agree with your other points I don't think that a floor/gate system will improve the current situation, I think it would make it even worse. When someone plays a lot of duo games with someone that is better than them they would eventually get stuck an elo with the gate that they dont belong to and just lose games without dropping in elo which would be 1. frustrating for those players and 2. ruin games for others
     
  6. Mick

    Mick Member

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    The one thing I can imagine to be helpful with this is if you would be more likely to matched up with players of a similar account level. So a level 20 player has more chance to get in a game with more level 15-25s, and a level 3 players more chance with level 1-10 or something, with rating still counting as the most important thing.
     
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  7. Seraphin

    Seraphin Member

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    Since 4v4 is a casual queue, it needs to be opened for new players. As Mick said, a good way in casual queue is to regroup people of the same level + same elo. However, a level 1 player should be able to play with a level 5 or 6 players since it will be very helpful to learn the game.

    Another possibility would be a huge tutorial videos panel where we explain well the attack type, defense type, difference between tank and dps units and some explanations about some units.

    Anyways, the best way to learn for new players like any game or sport is to play against people better than you ;)
     
  8. Akitos

    Akitos Member

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    You do realise that there is a higher chance that those new players end up being in the opposing team, yes? What you're saying is the typical "elo hell" bullshit. YOU are to blame for those losses. Not your teammate. Not in the long run. If you lose more games in the long run than you win, it's because of YOU. There is two players on each team and you constantly take one of those spots. That means that the enemy team can potentially have 2 new players, you can only have 1 new player. What I am saying is that if you're not the issue, you would be winning more. Because you are the constant factor. You're just not as good as you think you are. Stop blame others for your failure.
     
  9. SiegeMentality

    SiegeMentality Member

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    I don't know why you bother trolling me every so often, Akitos. You've been living the good life with your Michael P. Keaton impersonations on your stream and kept yourself isolated to about 100ish players for months. Your profile is reading six ranked games since the start of season three. You're currently in the 1400 bracket.

    At the time of this post, I've played 168 ranked games in season three. That's 162 more frustrating games than you.

    Sit down. When I need an Alex P. Keaton impersonation, I'll get on your stream.
     
  10. SiegeMentality

    SiegeMentality Member

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    First game after I get done responding to Akitos...

    upload_2019-3-10_22-41-57.png

    I ended up trying to carry a kid that massed trees and seraphim. I know it happens occasionally to everybody, but I'M DAMN TIRED OF SEEING IT EVERY MATCH
     
  11. Aren

    Aren Member

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    I have kinda the same impression... The matchmaking in lower elo at the moment is just not fair. I was last season gold (not that much but proud of it^^) and I played some games with a mate who was also gold.

    Every single game we keep playing against new players which had like 6 workers in round 14....

    I think the elo reset was to hard. But we can only take care of it next season.

    One other thing:
    I don't know SiegeMentality, but wow, he is the most reasonable person who has something to criticize I saw in the internet. He did not blame anybody nor insult and he even provided ideas to improve something.... And still he gets this much contra oO
     
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  12. Themryon

    Themryon Member

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    "Dani, I'm level 22. Getting from 0 to 7 is not hard. From your tone, it sounds like you think I'm being unreasonable."

    It is unreasonable. It is more than 40 hours of playing time. Some people will 've stopped playing the game long before that. That is what Dani wants to say.
     
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  13. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    Completely understand your frustration. The reality is that we get around 50 new players/day, which is awesome, but not enough to only match new players with other new players. We have to sometimes match new players with low-to-mid rated players. That sucks, but we don't have a choice.

    We have to prioritize fast queues over perfectly fair matchmaking. We're an indie studio with a medium-sized player base (around 35,000 active players per season). Our number one priority is growing the player base, and we're planning a free-to-play weekend and larger marketing efforts this year. Once we do that, we can consider specifically matching new players with other new players.

    I believe it takes ~250 games to hit level 7. We have to allow players to play some form of PvP earlier, otherwise, they won't stick around.

    Starting rating cannot solve the issue of new players getting matched with non-new players. Rating is always relative to the current skill of the player base. A 1200-rated player now is probably as good as a 1600-rated player in season 1. The average skill of the player base has significantly increased over time and will continue to increase. Let's say that right now, the average new player is around 800 rating in skill. In one year, the average new player will be around 500 rating in skill.

    We can't just keep lowering the starting rating of new players or start new players at zero rating. That has the following issues:
    1. It could lead to long queue times for new players because the matchmaker isn't fully equipped to handle players at 0 rating.
    2. It severely underestimates the average skill of a new player. It would suggest that an 800-rated player has a 99% chance of beating a new player, which is ridiculously wrong. I'd give a new player around a 50% chance of beating an 800-rated player (keep in mind that the lowest-rated active player in the game right now is in the high 800s).
    3. It would cause a massive negative rippling effect on the entire rating ecosystem that would severely deflate the rating of all players. Rating is relative. If new players started at 0 rating, every active player in the game would drop a few hundred rating by the end of season 3.
    The only long term solution is to specifically match new players together. That's a goal we're aiming for. Because it's not possible right now, in the meantime, I'd recommend duoing with someone and/or adopting the mindset that new players should actually inflate your rating. Think about it way - if new players are overrated, it should be advantageous for you because you're twice as likely to end up with a new player on the opposing team than on your team. I know that doesn't solve the frustration. I'm just doing my best to help create a positive perspective until we're able to fully solve the issue.
     
  14. ViccieLeaks

    ViccieLeaks Member

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    The amount u can carry in 1200-1400 range is insane, theres a reason why most good players get multiple win streaks of 10+ at the start of new seasons. Akitos said it in a harsh way, but he is not wrong
     
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  15. Kowloon_Girls

    Kowloon_Girls Member

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    I like this - as a newer player I want to be able to PvP without ruining someone else's rating.
     
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  16. HomeSnakes

    HomeSnakes Member

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    I've also had to make my peace with carrying other players as a major part of ladder playing for now. There's no way around playing with new players for me, and neither is there for so many very high elo players that I beat, not because I'm better, but because they get stuck with lower elo players on their side. And, as has been said, the "noob" factor is a part of everyone's rating (unless you have a dedicated friend you're climbing ladder with who's as good as you), so chasing higher ratings is already a bit of a half truth. I definitely share Siege's frustration, but I've come to accept that so does every other player over 1300/1400 trying to play with teammates who do what they want and ignore any effort at communication or are hopeless despite their best efforts.

    All I can advise is: as the better elo player, try to take control of the situation early on by pinging/suggesting sends. If they start to communicate, you can AT LEAST count on them sending when you tell them to (at least most of the time, usually afte'r they've leaked a ton and are more willing to listen). And plan a win that way. And some of the time, they will "get it" and offer some good advice or at least coordinate with you. Any more effort than that, like typing long explanations, is too stressful and will distract you from your game. Not worth it.