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Open Letter to the Devs

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Bonny, Jun 22, 2019.

  1. Bonny

    Bonny Member

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    Wintermaul Clan's Open Letter to the Devs

    This is an open letter to the Legion TD2 devs.

    There have been several changes and situations in the past where active (which are mostly high elo) players tried to intervene. Sadly with no chance!

    Hopefully we can show em that its not only 10 players that feel like this!

    Now we need all your help!!

    We will state arguments, why the upcomming S4 wont be good, or any newbe friendly.

    This letter wont be personal or insult anyone, even tho there will be quotes from all types of players.

    One personal statement before i begin (only my opinion; Bonny):

    I started to help where i can, made video guides, did forum post, had hours of discussions in discord. On top of that i was ever friendly till i saw the upcoming patch notes. Trying to help this might be my last attempt, if i cant see a change!

    Also pls be aware that im not a native english speaker, and especially not in written englisch. ^^

    This open letter will be about:

    1. New content

    2. Unbalance in S3

    3. New Players

    4. No Supply

    5. Prophet as MM

    6. Mercenary Cap

    7. Unbalanced upcoming stuff

    8. Tutorial

    9. Anything else​

    1. New content

    Probably all of us know that new content has been rare in LTD2 since release. Which is pretty common for a game with (back the two devs). Still we loved it, even tho it began to annoy after half a year with no new units.

    “The game needs new units released at a faster rate, to keep the game fresh. That is not easy, only having 1 designer slows the process, animations take time, hiring other animators or designers would be too expensive and the devs probably can’t afford it, so even if I dislike this, it’s understandable that they can’t release new units faster.” (-Roshkatull)

    Finally this began to change around Season 3. We all know that this is way too late since most players already left for this reason. The playersbade was slightly decreasing each day even tho we got 3 units in one month. But you messed up with this far ago.

    After a short while of new and fresh content, which was awesome, it began to go on like before. No new units, no announcement, anything!

    You told us that this is for Lobby 2.0 which should grow the playerbase, but at the same time you took the risk to lose the remaining 2.5k daily players.

    “The best thing a low populated game can have is the community. Being in a community with so few active players is like living in a small town. Even though you’ll rarely meet new people, you’ll have a bunch of fun hanging out in your town bar, meeting up with everyone you know and grabbing a few drinks with them.” (-Roshkatull)

    To hold and attract new players its necessary to have regular content on Youtube and Twitch. But there is rarely anyone streaming or making videos.

    “Lforward, who is doing youtube and streaming for a living, only played around 64 ranked matches the WHOLE 5 month season. He averages less than a game every 2 days. And I don’t blame him, both his Legion TD2 videos and legion td2 streams get less viewers than his wc3 videos and streams. I’ll take this opportunity to recommend his WC3 content for a good dose of nostalgia. But when your own community manager, who is a youtuber and a streamer, kinda stopped promoting your game,” (-Roshkatull) bcs there is a big lack of interest for the same game over and over again. This lack of content was one point why i started to make video-guides by my own.

    All we got left are “a few high elo streamers, namely jules, kingdanz and adames who sometimes stream with no voice or webcam. Even if it’s high elo content, it’s still not the same as explaining live on voice their decisions.” (-Roshkatull)

    Even tho a lot have offered their help several times, make/made video-guides or post their thoughts on the forums, we all got the feeling to just beeing ignored and not noticed. Ofc this game is your baby and you would go through hell for this, but many players would do the same and did spend thousands of hours playing, discussing or promoting this game!

    2. Unbalance in S3

    This is gonna be a short part, since there is not much to say.

    Almost all S3 was unbalanced, which is not intended since we got promised regular balance patches several times. In the beginning it was decent, nobody knew how to use kingups yet and there were no new untis.

    (One of the reasons Basti and me were 2nd in the tourney was bcs we saw the potential of kingups)

    Then it all started with making Kingups give 6inc (cant blame Jules here since Kingdanzz and me were discussing with him about this), but after we all saw how big the impact has become this should have been reverted asap.

    Each new unit that came out was overpowered as hell, which could be seen with 5 minutes of testing on ptr. Sadly you decided not to make any changes, or just super small ones, that cant even be seen.

    A lot of units or combinations are still op atm:

    • Any sort of aoe (Boar, PYRO, DC,)

    • Combinations like Pyro+ Mps; Aoe+ Rogue Wave

    • Mask

    • Doomsday

    • T1 spam on 20
    and many more. Even in the new patch notes only few of them are adressed, and then either not how they should be neved or way to conservative.

    3. New Players

    This might be the most important part, and the one that is in our all favor!

    Even tho its not gonna be too long, since i will discuss every upcoming change with examples in their own part.

    It was probably a surprise for all of us that the game got that much interest at the launch. But the playerbase massively decreased fast, due the lack of transparency and new content. For example i remember when there were 3.6k people online at the same time (thats more than the average daily player count now).

    So the aim for the game and especially you devs is to grow the playerbase.

    At least thats one of the things you know, and already have plans to do so.

    But you are adressing it the wrong way when it comes to ingame content and balancing. This will be shown in the following parts.

    One thing that i gotta mention here is Powerscore:

    “Let’s analyze power score. Power score literally does nothing for new players. A number won’t actually tell anything to someone who doesn’t know the game in and out. They’ll see that the opponents have a higher or a lower powerscore and they won’t know what to do with that information. So while this doesn’t help new players, it ruins the game for high elo players who can actually utilize this information.” (-Roshkatull)

    Indeed this is a huge problem, i (or other high rated players) had several games where your mate did just send full income after you decided to save, bcs his power score was too low.

    This issue is can be see with the MVP score as well. There was a time when everyday there was a player complaining that he got lower MVP score than his partner, but played better.

    In fact people start to play for a score number and not for winning the game. Btw its still a team-game, and there are several tactics where one player will end with a crappy MVP score, for ex. he pushed all his gold after W15.

    My suggestion is to remove this sort of irritating and missleading information, to not confuse them even more.

    4. No Supply

    Uffff. The first time i read this, i thought its a joke. But then it began to be a real topic.

    “Not even gonna talk about supply, since its just a super unnecessary change.” (-Kingdanzz)

    To begin with, every good Tower defense/ strategic game got a limiting factor like supply. To name some: WC3; StarCraft, Dota Auto Chess or Civilisation.

    This is a necessary resource to keep such a game balanced and not too snowbally.

    Jules said the following about our fears on the removal:

    "I did a lot of testing and didn't think it was broken after these changes. Some of the changes that make it not broken are:

    1. Nerfs to T1s

    2. Buffs to other units, especially high value units

    3. Buffs to aura % effects, which synergize strongly with high value units

    4. Nerfs to abuse cases like Hades


    Lets have a look at this and add other arguments:

    1) irrelevant; massing units makes the wave lose dps and waste hits

    and we have big units to kill them while they do nothing” (-Ithion)

    In fact the nerves to T1 units wont change their status in later game.

    The critical aspect is overkilling them. I show you a short example:

    Looter (S3) got 110 Hp

    Looter (S4) will have 90 Hp

    both will be able to tank one hit from a late-/midgame wave (13,14,15,17,18,19,20; maybe more didnt go threw all) so there is basically nothing different.

    Most of you will have already see that this will make a big difference, whether there are 5 or 50 looter.

    For those who didnt: 5 looter will tank 5 hits from any wave unit and 50 will tank 50 hits.

    This process is called overkilling. Here its not relevant whether it over kills with only 1 dmg or with 500!

    Thats why Kingdanzz already stated that in the lategame it wont have an effect if they got 100 or 1 hp, bcs they will overkill em anyway.

    Ofc a nerve has an impact in the early game, what is gonna harm a lot of openers most likely. But there hasnt been much testing concerning this.

    Talking about points 2-4 there isnt much to say, but you are wrong.

    The buff to high cost units is a minor thing, what wont keep people away from spamming t1 in their splits. Same with Hades “nerves” you made the mana cost 5 more, but dont take into account that you now can build 10x the amount of T1s.

    Another fact is that its now more profitable to mass base units like Sand Badger, bcs their HP/Gold is better than the one of their upgraded version.

    Same will happen with t2 spam, like we got in season 2. They are really efficient untis when it comes to synergies, dps, or aoe. They synergise pretty well, like rogue wave+ pyro, or ranger+ zeus…. This has been a thing back in S2 where you won the game if you had more t2 units. Now you even buffed aquas, what will make it more efficient.

    It will be possible to hold wave 13 with zookas, wave 14 with aquas and so on.

    “This won’t help new players. It will only make them struggle with their build, as they won’t know when to spam tier 1s and when not to spam. Something which old players won’t have any issue with. Also, supply upgrading was one of the things which new players didn’t really have an issue with. If anything, I saw way too many players upgrading supply too fast, but i rarely see supply stuck players. So using supply stucking as a reason isn’t really valid.” (-Roshkatull)

    In fact the argument that supply is too hard to learn for new players is not really good. I introduced a friend of mine to the game a week ago and asked him about this topic and he stated again, that its not a problem at all.

    5. Prophet as MM

    Now we reach a controversial topic, since this came out of nothing.

    “Stop adding or changing features that no one asked for, especially big ones that completely screw over how the game in general is played. As a current example, I have seen no one complain about Mastermind and how it works, neither on the forums nor on discord. I have seen no one advocating transforming the prophet funmode we had into ranked standard. Yet here we are face to face with a total rework of how Mastermind works.” (-Bluejin)

    “The change with the reroll, is absolutely a no go, and as i said before, i think u lose a lot of the big players with that.” (-Barashnukor)

    Indeed i just wondered as they did. That whole idea came out of nothing, and was a funmode before. I personally dislike this as almost all other players i talked to do, but there is one other opinion that i will state now:

    “The only thing I like is the new "reroll" mechanic. Back when they gave mastermind 2 rerolls I also disagreed with it since I like being force to play with what I got. since you are probably never gonna reroll for 6 random units earlygame that will be given again.”


    After this i talked to him and the following came out: He thinks it is a buff for the lategame, since you can pick and early-/midgame roll and then reroll for big units later on. According to him you should not use rerolls before wave 10.

    I will tell you my thought about this now.

    First i have to say, that i dislike this almost the same as the supply change (which is the worst in my opinion). But why?:

    1. It was not needed at all, the roll and reroll mechanism has been optimised for almost a year now. Its good as it it with some small adjustments (like azeria beeing not arcane). No one complained about it for a while.

    2. Loss of competitive aspects; After your first roll, you will get up to 5 rerolls where you just get 6 random units (like the new recommanded roll mechanism).
    This makes it super rng and there will be several situations where you just dont get any fitting units, or just super bad 10 units in the first place.

    3. The reroll has no feeling for synergies or meta, so you might get a super bad T1,

    for ex Peewee, only bcs you need a T1/ Pierce Dmg

    4. All 5 rerolls are for free. “THE REROLLS ARE FREE?!?” (-Cornep)

    5. All the time we hear that you want to make the game easier for newbees, and

    then you introduce this, which wont help at all. The only thing you will achieve

    is that, they get even more confused, if to roll, when to roll, how often to roll,

    which units do i have to place before i reroll to prepare an upgrade in later

    game; Did you get all of this? If not how would they feel?!

    Most like how the “old” roll/reroll mechanism works. Its way easier for new players to learn bcs you only gotta choose the roll once and wont lead even more into and rng based game.

    This is directly for you Jules:

    You say that you are very competitive, but this change will bring the opposite, since there will always be better/meta units that one gets and the other wont.

    For ex. compare Lotter and Peewee as the T1 in the first reroll, with the new supply change you will ever be in an advantage with Looter over Peewee!

    6. Mercenary Cap

    Gladly this is one of the things you already nerved a bit.

    But in S4 you will be able to send up to 10 Mercs of the same kind, without a time.

    “Increasing the merc stock to 10 just sounds super unbalanced to me, if you have a build without any AOE 3 witches and 10 snails are just gonna fuck you super hard.”


    - This will have a huge impact on fokus:

    Your Berzerker will never hit the Boss on Wave 10 with such a unit spam

    - Impact on splitting and wave movement:

    More units-> more randomness

    - Just think of getting 10 Giant Snails for only 200 myth with no timer :O

    - Think of low Merc spam with each getting +8 dmg from a packleader

    - Most dont think of aoe only targeting up to 20 units

    This will end up in a huge imbalanced, if you want to change the amount, maybe make income Mercs start with 3 instead of 2 spots but i feel like this is already more than enough!

    7. Unbalanced upcoming stuff

    I can only name what i can think of yet, bcs otherwise it will take me another 4 hours to make only this part.

    • all stuff above

    • Guardian Angel (can get up to 700 extra value)

    • Pawn Shop (get free Grarl on all units + 50 Gold)

    • Movement Speed (I will talk about this right after)

    • Protector

    • T1 + T2 Spam

    • Making T1U bad for no reason; (only Mask upgrades are good)

    • Aqua

    • Rogue Wave + Aoe

    • Making Leviathan a non tank …

    • DC/ honey buff

    • aps/ mps (pyro nerv is completely useless)

    • STARCALLER :O (+Boar/ Harpy )

    • Hades

    • Giant Snails

    • Brudes

    • Wave 7 + Pack Leader

    Pretty sure there is even more but thats what i was able to think of in the first minutes.

    Now lets talk about the movement speed, which is again a thing noone i know asked for and will only bring downsides like king explains:

    “Next change I heavily dislike is the 9% movement speed buff, its probably just gonna mess up the whole pathing once again just like latest changes. This leads to me and a lot of other people having to figure out certain positionings once again, which is really annoying.” (-Kingdanzz)

    “Stop making small changes that change the game big time without good reason, or if you do, bundle them. For example, in the 4.0 patch notes, you change movement speed. That will have implications on positioning, and I at least cannot see why you need to do that.” (-Bluejin)

    “Placement is key part of the game and I am not sure if reducing it's relevancy is a step in the right direction.” (-YoggYogg)

    There isnt much to add, but that also units will be weaker, like Harphy and Boar.

    Splitting will get a bit less worth bcs the units now reach you main building faster.

    8. Tutorial

    And here we are. This is the solution for all your problems with new players.

    Sure, the old tutorial was made in a little time span, and is not perfect yet. But its far from what it should be.

    There would be no need to remove supply if there was a propper tutorial that introduced fresh players to the game.

    There are a few points i can tell you right away what you can improve, pretty sure many players will have more thoughts.

    1. There is need to play more tutorials than the first 2!!!
    • only the win vs AI is not necessary to go ranked
    2. Introduce Codex, its kinda the best update in the past 6 month for all players

    3. Add videos to explain certain things

    4. Hawk and I came up with an automatic sender for newbees

    5. Give the new players a guide Legion they learn fully

    6. Give a standart build, they can learn and improve from

    If there are more thoughts how you can improve the Tutorial just comment them.

    Overall this would be the possibility to get rid of these change ideas you got lately.

    9. Anything else

    Here some more quotes from high rated players, might not rly effect the topics above but that should have been said.

    “my TLDR feelings of the patch:




    yeah, sure.


    Cool theme new unit

    not a fan of other changes, especially MM/RR” (-Cornep)

    "Giving a server-wide announcement, mentioning their content on discord every so often, or even offering to join on their streams for a short 30 mins or 1h Q&A with a dev, would have been a FREE way of offering them promotions and also would have helped the staff team stay in touch with their community, while also helping less dedicated players by introducing them into the community. More tournaments or more interactions with the community would have helped these streamers stay and make the game more enjoyable for everyone." (-Roshkatull)

    "Everytime you’re thinking about making a change, you have to think about every aspect of it and how it influences low elo players, medium elo players, high elo players and you have to consider how it influences stuff like gameplay, time management and even the originality of the game." (-Roshkatull)


    Puhhhhh, now after around 4,5 hours im mainly done. Its now more than an open letter and more like an open book.

    As i said before this is my last attend to help you, bcs i dont feel like having any impact.

    On top of that we already lost three highly active players, that choose to quit the game, partly bcs of some decisions introduced above.

    These are Xarku, Mick and Roshkatull! A lot more consider leaving (including myself), show us that you still care and dont take all as granted.

    Xarku and Mick decided not to sign here, bcs they wont take part in the game, otherwise they feel mostly the same.

    If you think the same, sign to this open letter, give it a like or share it with your Legion friends.

    Have a nice day, im out!


    Signed by:

    Bonny (2k hours), Nimea (1k hours), Roshkatull (1,7k hours+ 1k in guides),

    Cornep (2k hours + 1k in guides), Bluejin (1,5k hours), YoggYogg (2k hours),

    KiNq55 (500 hours), Kingdanzz (2,3k hours), Adames(1,5k hours), Aschoff (22 hours),

    SirCloud (800 hours), Snoobzzz(2k hours), Barashnukor (2,6k hours),

    Marchombre (3,4k+ hours of design), Aligg (500 hours), Sakuragi (1350 hours)
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
  2. Barashnukor

    Barashnukor Member

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    also signed from me: 2100hours and 2nd account also 500h
  3. s0n0fagun

    s0n0fagun Member

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    @Bonny it's most likely human nature that makes us fear change in general...

    The mm reroll changes, swing in the miss!
    Everything else, questionable at most...
  4. Bonny

    Bonny Member

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    I dont get you, you said the reroll is "a swing in the miss" and the rest is questionable. So you think both is not good, do i get you right?

    About the rest: Im not the only one with this mindset, there are several players with many thousands of hours played or otherwise invested in the game. We dont only "fear" the new patch, we tested it on ptr for hours and saw what it will ruin.
  5. Seraphin

    Seraphin Member

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    Hello everybody,

    I'm sorry to say that, in the current statement of this letter, I cannot sign it. My explanation :

    Devs communication :

    My analyze :

    Devs introduce some months ago a special topic (Looking at Legion that you can find here) to explain what they work about. Past 6 months were focused by implementing some important stuff (refactoring, Unity upcrades, Lobby 2.0, chat 2.0 then 3.0, new dev integration). I understand the frustration of all players to not have visible massive changes but those works were really important in order to prepare the future. Something they do since the game has been released on Steam.
    After all, how would you like to increase playerbase when the stability of the game is not guarenteed.

    Also, I would like to point out the difference between last year and now. I really think the communication from Auto Attack team is better even if they can still improve. Now, they share really more often what they work about, what are their plans and particularly, they still talk with the community.

    What could be improved :
    I agree with you when you're saying they could do some Q&A on Twitch or Youtube for example. That would give a special relationship with their community, give opportunity to new players to be introduced to this community and give more transparency and visibility to players. But not sure they have time.
    To be honest, I don't see what they could do more concerning communication and make it worth (make players more satisfied).

    Auto Attack strategy :

    My analyze :
    I cannot say if I'm right or wrong with this topic. However, in my opinion, devs tried and are still trying to find the good way to make this game easier to learn for a new player. This is a REALLY important part for the success of the game.
    If you attract, let say 2 millions players. That's cool but if your game is not stable or if new players cannot understand your game, they will just leave. The goal is to make this game free in future and have some contents buyable (skins for example). So, they absolutely need new player cannot understand the game and want to keep playing the game.
    Since the beginning of the game, they took their time to do it since Legion TD 2 was the only real competitive tower defense game.

    What I would like to say :
    I would like to point out those past few months a lot of Tower Defense has been released. Dota Auto Chess, League of Legends with their new mode (don't remember the name) just to mentionned them. I think it is really important to accelerate the work and the investment. I can understand Auto Attack does not have the same ressources as Riot Games or Blizzard. However, if they manage to create a really better game than Legion TD 2, the game could definitvely be dead or at least know a lot of difficulties if it is not already the case.
    Also, I don't agree to focus about only making the game easier to learn for new players. Indeed, at the moment 100k players bought the game but only 10k (or something like this) are playing the game at the moment...
    That could be really cool to attract new players but if current player don't want to play at the moment, I don't know how new player will play more than 1 or 2 month :(

    Finally, I would say the best way to find the graal (attract new players and keep them playing) would be often do massive changes even if this means having unbalanced meta. Since at the moment nobody has the good solution, the best way is to try a lot of things and get feedbacks from current and new players. That's my opinion. Don't know if it's the best solution but I believe in it.

    Game contents :

    My analyze :
    I agree to say that we had a really unbalanced meta for this season. But that's not the first time and I think it's pretty normal in the current way since Jules has to deal with less than 1k players data. Also, with new king upcrades, we all had to learn the new meta which took a lot of time.
    As you said in your letter, there were some combos (and still strong actually) which were too strong for too long time. This is really not good for the game particularly when the rank is mastermind only.
    I still see that in past 6 months, we finished Nomad Legion and got some new others contents (king upcrades for example). When you take into consideration Auto Attack worked a lot of special stuff (unity upcrades, chat and lobby 2.0...) that's not that bad.
    At the moment, for this first half of this year, we got 2 tournaments. One official, another one from the community. Remember that past year, we got 2 tournaments only...
    I'm pretty sure that we will have at least one more tournament this year.

    What I would like to say :
    I think we should get a bit more patches to balance the game. But more than patches, I would say we need more hotfixes ! I cannot believe that Masks have been too strong for 1 month !! It is important to react really faster and with more important changes on units which are too strong. Particularly considering that Jules has to deal with few data only.
    That's cool to have some new Legion Spells. However, I don't think this is the most important you have to work about at the moment. I would say that could be cool to have some skins and new units which are way more visible and impacting for players.
    Considerating that Auto Attack does not have someone in the team which can only organize tournament, that's not surprising we don't have more tournament. However, I agree to say that it could be really important for the high elo players to get more tournament or a league. Even if we call the community or moderators (if possible) to organize it.

    Global thought :
    The problem here is I'm not sure we can balance the meta, get a lot of contents, try to find a way to make the game easier for new players, make players keep playing the game, improve quality of life (lobby, chat etc...) of the game and communicate a lot with the community...at least not with only 4 people in Auto Attack team. :(
    Also, with some new Tower Defense games, it seems really important to have massive investment in order to get everything faster.
    Now, as we say, easy to say...
    This new season changes are maybe bad for the game. But I still think it's a good thing to try this IF it is possible to revert changes really fast in case it's not a good way to attract new players and keep players playing the game.
    Finally, I would say that I, indeed play less on Legion TD 2 recently. Probably this is due to the lack of changes but I will keep support Auto Attack in their work. I just hope that you will find the good alchemy for your game! :)

    Bonny concerning your letter, with all my respects I'm a bit disapointed that you give them a feedback on what is wrong without giving any solution. I'm pretty confident when I say that having more guides and more tutorials is not enought to increase playerbase and make players keep playing.

    Thank you for reading. I'm open to discuss about it on Discord if you want. That will be better than on the Forum :)
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2019
  6. s0n0fagun

    s0n0fagun Member

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    At first sight, some of these changes are definitly going to come out in a bad way,,, but,,, I think its rather a balance issue instead of a bad change overall. Most of these changes are going to need some tweaking. Thats what I mean with questionable.

    On the other hand I totally agree with you about the MM reroll change. That is just messing with the fundamentals of the game and not something you just going to tweak away with some balance modifications.

    Hopefully I have made myself clear to you a bit better this time ;)
  7. Lisk

    Lisk Director Staff Member

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    Hi Bonny, thanks for taking the time to write out this letter! You raise up a lot of good points! I'll try to respond to them as best as I can.

    1. New content
    - This is always on our minds, and we're working as fast as we can. It's still an early access game, so there's a lot more things that are being worked on than just new units.
    - I know there are lot of people in the community who have offered to help, and they feel like they have been ignored, but I'm not sure what we can do other than responding to everyone and making this a top priority (but that would mean stopping work on the game, since we only have so much time in a day). Let me know if you have ideas how we can better supporting content creators!

    2. Unbalance in S3
    - I can't really comment too much on specific balance since that's Jules' expertise, but balance is something that we work pretty hard on. As far as I know, the winrates for new units has been around 50% (usually below 50% for the first couple of days). Then the winrate climbs up higher once people realize how to use them, then they get nerfed. I think it's a pretty good pattern, since the opposite is when I think Pollys were released, they were too weak, and it felt really bad because everyone wanted to try them out, but they would just lose.
    - That said, this season Masks were OP for too long, but that largely had to do with some technical difficulties where we couldn't patch the game for some time.

    3. New Players
    - I am glad that you are looking out for new players! It's a tough call because I had read a lot of feedback before Power Score that players didn't have any idea if they were doing well or not, then after Power Score they were happy since they could see if they were ahead/behind. I think there are still improvements that can be made, so it would be helpful if anyone has some screenshots where Power Score felt inaccurate and we can all discuss how to improve it.
    - For new players, encouraging them to income is actually a good thing, since many new players just forget to use their mythium (I have seen some players who played 10+ games and didn't even know what income was)
    - There will always be some selfish players who play for personal score, like playing for CS/KDA instead of helping the team take objectives.

    4. No Supply
    - This is a change we had been wanting to make for a while, since it simplifies the game by removing a resource. I know you (and others) disagree strongly with the change, but it's disrespectful to how much thought & work we've put in to call it a joke.
    - You are right that it's an "unnecessary" change for experienced players, which sucks because it will affect the meta/existing builds and will require re-learning (which is hard).
    - Our thinking is that it's worth the cost of experienced players re-learning a new meta (and requiring probably multiple balance patches) if it means the game will be easier to learn long-term
    - About specific units like Looter - it would be really helpful if you/others can test some builds on PTR, compare them to live, and post your results. It's more usable feedback if you have test results!

    5. Prophet as MM
    - Hmm, this subtitle is a little misleadingly named, since in Prophet you didn't draft your initial rolls, but in Season 4 Mastermind you still do
    - If you can screenshot some rolls that have "super bad 10 units" that will be helpful, so we can improve the roll selection
    - I think most of the time, you wouldn't want to reroll until mid/late game (and even then you might not ever reroll), so I think it's not actually as huge of a change as it sounds. You usually shouldn't reroll hoping for a specific unit, unless getting super lucky is the only way you can win.
    - Rerolling has actually been pretty frequently brought up by players coming from other games (like original LTD, Autochess) where you can reroll any wave
    - Definitely down to revert if it ends up being not fun, but I think it's worth trying it out

    6. Mercenary Cap
    - The idea behind this was that new players get confused by the stock numbers since it adds more information on the screen, when most of the time you don't have to worry about those numbers
    - It also felt weird having to know/count if you'd be able to send something in time
    - It is a pretty easy fix to lower the cap from 10 to something like 5 if 10 ends up being too many

    7. Unbalanced upcoming stuff
    - Again I can't really speak to specific unit balance, but if you can provide some tests on PTR that would be helpful
    - These all seem like things easily fixed by hotfixes or minor balance patches

    Movespeed change - like mentioned before, it sucks because it will require re-learning certain positionings. It's a cost that I think is worth it in the long-run. It's also why we tried to bundle big changes in one Season 4 patch rather than randomly in the middle of the season. However, I'd probably be down to revert the movespeed change if it was more trouble than it's worth. Maybe if someone can screenshot some builds on PTR vs. Live showing the effects.

    8. Tutorial
    - A better tutorial is something I'd definitely like to work on! I don't have a timetable on it yet, though, since my main focus is working on Lobby 2.0.
    - You have brought up some good ideas - it'd be cool to have a separate thread just for the tutorial. One thing to keep in mind is some players already feel like our tutorial is too long (many players feel like *any* tutorial that is required is annoying), so we are trying to find a middle ground by requiring players to play the first two

    9. Anything else
    - I'm not sure what to respond here other than what has been said above, but thanks for sharing the quotes!
    - I thought maybe it could be cool to have a "question_and_answer" channel in the Discord which is specifically for Q&A stuff, but wasn't sure how it would be formatted yet

    Thanks again for the feedback. I can tell you put a lot of time and put your heart into it. It's tough reading critical feedback, but we always try to read everything so that we can take everyone's feedback into account when developing the game. One thing to keep in mind is that just because "nobody complained" doesn't mean there wasn't something to be improved - there are players who just quit the game without talking about it in Discord/Forums. Some changes which seem unpopular to active forum posters might be well received by the silent majority.

    I'm sad that you feel like we, as the developers, don't care about you or the other players, because we care about you a LOT. We don't take you for granted - in fact we're always thinking about you guys every day. I'll definitely be sad to see you go if you end up leaving, but hopefully you'll give the new season a chance or come back in the future.

    Let me know if I missed anything and I can try to reply back as soon as I can.
    Schwingeling, Marchombre and Seraphin like this.
  8. Bluejin

    Bluejin Member

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    For how much thought & work you've put in, you really suck at explaining why you want this change. Because all I ever read is „But supply is difficult for new players.“.

    Also, if you put just as much thought & work into other features like King Upgrades, and the best you could come up with in over a month were three buttons to give flat stats to the king, I am not impressed.

    So new players don't understand a certain mechanic, so instead of trying to explain it better, let's better just remove it, is that your philosophy? There are plenty of games that are way more complex, yet they manage to draw people in without dumbing it down to the level where even a carrot can play competitively.

    Well thanks, but I think I'll pass. I really enjoyed this game, but after countless broken promises and lackluster patches and changes that felt like thought out in the spur of the moment, I'm no longer willing to have faith in you. I had a good time for a while, so thanks for that I guess and good luck.
    Bonny and SirCloud like this.
  9. Bonny

    Bonny Member

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    So i will keep this really short, since it will have no effect anyway.


    This will be unbalanced all S4. I listed up 20 things only in a few minutes, with more time ill find 20 more.
    You didnt even manage to fix the pyro problem the whole S3, or the Legion problem in S2, or cross in S1, so why should anyone trust that you can change 20+ things in "one little hotfix".
    I didnt even mention that most of this only results bcs of Supply removal!!


    Well i can understand, that you put time in this, and now want to see how it works. But most who signed also put hundrets of hours in for guides, design or discussions. I will talk to this later agian.

    MM+ Mercs

    Two changes that will only harm new players and wont help as said above. No need to tell the same things over and over again.

    Screenshots/ PowerScore/ Rolls

    There was a Screenshot posted of high elo games, when the random player did send only bcs of power score (he was 1.7k elo+).
    Pretty sure you missed your target with this.

    I wont go and take Screenshots for things we said 100 times already in Discord, Forums or PM.


    For this one l really need to be calm.
    Your communication cant be worse! All that has been promised like regular patching has never been achieved, the monthly updates sometimes go live on the last days of the month, with no real update in it, and on top of that nobody is reading all that we write in discord/forums (like you stated).

    If you read it, you would have recognised that there were planty of good suggestions the past week. But not a single reaction from you.

    But if any pleb asks for the 3rd time of the day where he can report players, hell get an answer in less than a minute.

    Now i will show you an example how good your communication is:

    You work on supply removal in secret

    Jules: What do you think of removing supply for S4?

    Nobody liked the idea, there were only arguments against it.

    Devs: Okey, lets do it ?!?!

    And you really dont see how we feel then?

    One last thing, even tho i know, i will state it more dramatic, then it was meant:

    To hear that you cant always just listen to the same 5-10 people over and over again shows us how much you care about us.
    Not counting the active high elo scene, there are maybe 2-3 more guys (mostly fanboys that like all you do) active in forums and discord.
    So we are the ONLY ones that even put efford in this. Thats one of the reasons i show the hours played above, so you realise how much we do for this game.

    As I said this topic is the last i try to help with, when i see no changes.
    On top of this ill quit/ pause this game when the patch goes live.
  10. Cornep

    Cornep Member

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    As my name was already among the signatures for the overall letter, i wont go too indepth on the "issues" or topics mentioned there.

    From my perspective of all this "drama" or whatever you want to call it, is caused by problems in communication.

    Before i am flamed to ashes for saying that, im not saying I or other people mentioned on this thread like or dislike the changes about to be introduced in the upcoming 4.0 patch. As I signed my name to the first post of the thread I do agree more or less with the contents of it.

    So, why communication?

    There are quite a few non official LTD 2 discords that are generally more active than the official one. Why? Because people feel heard in them. I have seen the following comment by most likely everyone mentioned or posting in this thread and bunch of others

    " Why bother posting anything in the forums or discord when you just get ignored?"

    Not always in those exact words, but the same thing over and over.

    Post guides on forums? Feels like a massive waste of time.
    Try to post constructive feed back? 0 response directly or visible in the future patches.
    Try to get some kind of question answered? No response

    Possible feature mentioned by the devs, like the supply removal possibility was mentioned during Protector PTR by Lisk, and it was definitely not welcomed by any comment i've seen. But it still comes live. Sure, only minority of the very active core playerbase reacted,but should the game become simpler because a non vocal new player section of the playerbase feel supply is complicated, should a tutorial, even a 30 second one to youtube that can be linked not be the easier solution?

    Tutorials are clearly an issue, this has been communicated over the last 18 months a ton of times. New players have 0 literal clue how to use auras in their current form, it is rare to see an aura touching an unit, seeing one being used to buff 6 unit is the same as seeing an unicorn when not tripping on battery acid. Maybe instead of dumbing down the game, it could be communicated to get some guides up to help players, instead of removing core mechanics?

    Maybe throw in a thread or have someone fake start a conversation on main discord to see how people like an upcoming patch feature like supply removal (this was kinda done, but feedback clearly got lost somewhere), merc cap thing.

    I know not everything is among the changes you want to test feel with the playerbase, but if LoL decided to remove the jungle, or items it might ask everyone how they felt about it?

    Just trying to give a hand with this backlash. While the dislike of the proposed features are clearly the burning piece of wood, but hthe communication problems in the background is like pure oxygen being blasted on the fire.
  11. ithion

    ithion Member

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    *You've made so many players feel like trying to help is a waste of time.
    *You make the discord a place where nobody wants to be and talk about the game
    *When you ask for help and you get a certain response it's ignored because there is only a small percentage of the player base but there is no one else left to give a damn

    Then when you go with an idea like removing supply you say it's okay because it makes the game easier and you nerfed t1. Even though players with 20k+ hours of gameplay told you that is a horrible approach (You could lower the hp on t1 to 1 and remove it's dps and it would still be op late- Kingdanzz).

    And now you act all suprise It's called a joke. And apparently that's disrespectful because you put "so much effort into this idea". I could put a lot of effort into making a song & recording it, it would still be shit.

    In ltd it's placement, armor/attack types, knowing how much you can push and when, what to send and when that are players biggest concerns. And these new goddamnawful auras that are so counter intuitive 1400 elo players constantly fucks up using them.

    "We change auras to make them more intuitive and easier to use, we can always revert"
    It made them less intuitive, harder to use, and forces horrible placement. You never reverted that or any major change.

    I played 400+ classic 4v4 games with mostly 1k-1400elo players this season and supply was for sure way down at the bottom of issues they had. They are just so bad at everything else that they don't even know how much they have to learn about it.

    Guess what, having 3 resources to manage isn't what's preventing this game from having more than a few hundred players.
    I'm learning civ 6 now and it has faith, gold, science, culture, amenities, housing, food and production in every city and you need to give it something to do aswell. And knowing where to place a city or when is even harder. There are like 6 ways to win a game and endless more stuff. It's still very popular.

    But sure, keep blaming the few who have been willing to put time into helping you out for problems you've caused. Keep saying we are disrespectful or that it's "not really motivating you to keep in touch with the community".

    I have 113 friends on my steam friendslist, every single one added via ltd2 because the once liked the game and were rather good at it.
    Now none of them play because you've made so many bad decisions and you just keep doing more of them.

    It's not fun to play anymore, there is no point in trying to climb or achieve things and there is no point in giving ideas or sharing experience.
    Everyone have their breaking point and there has been many times I've just been shaking my head sighing, but lately you've just made lose all remaining faith in the team, the game and how you go about making decisions.

    I've had this game running for 3794 hours but it won't be 3800.

    Kk thx bye
    Seraphin likes this.
  12. reW

    reW Member

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    I played this game for 1900 hours, and this time i think the changes are super shitty and will make the game worse, putting it to the worst state ever. But let's just test it, i think if it will run down the river too hard Lisk and Jules will revert the changes and listen to the community.
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
  13. Themryon

    Themryon Member

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    I only played like 200 hours. I am low elo. But i follow the game for a long time.

    TLDR; Do a HUD revamp and make everything much more clear.

    • I agree with the bad communication and low amount of new content. You cannot just sell people 6 (or more?) months in a row: we are upscaling the lobby. It doesn't work like that...(i know development takes a while, but you should combine it with content)
    • I have no opinion about the unbalance/balance. I don't think this plays any role at lower elo. So no comment there.
    • I have yet no opinion about the upcoming changes, but i highly doubt that it will make the game unplayable at low elo. Again, high elo can be a whole other cup of tea. The only opinion i have is that supply is not the problem for newbies. They likely will forget it a few times to up supply on time, but that is something they will remember.
    • I strongly disagree that a tutorial would solve the problem that the game is too difficult. (see below) But i think the tutorial could be improved, i just don't think this will have the biggest impact.
    • I do not think that power score is bad (for low elo). i think it maybe helps new/lower elo players to be happier (because it shows them they are performing badly), but i don't think that it will teach them the game. So it isn't REALLY helping.
    What i think WOULD help for new players is:
    1) regular content makers for the game on youtube that focus on mechanics. LForward uploads a lot of games, but as a new/low elo player it is difficult to really learn from it. Of course with a lack of new content, it is difficult to maintain that. Chicken or the egg.

    2) i think the biggest impact would be a HUD revamp, why:
    • It is not clear how to find the codex
    • the value bar below is too tiny
    • the chat history & event history are too cluttered
    • it is after all these years still difficult to know which enemy you send to (those tiny pillars are not helping enough
    • there are a lot of things you need to "just know" how to do it. eg clickdrag for the ping menu
    • You can not find info about special waves beforehand. How does a newbie need to know that wave 9 is anti ranged? (please do not remove that because i'm telling that it is not clear)
    • How does one is supposed to know how the gate works?
    • Without a 'builder' it is weird that your fighter-bar changes to upgrades if you click a unit. To upgrade a unit i propose a different section of the screen should be used for that.
    • + please add tooltips in the loading screen
    • .... (the list goes can go on; if you (devs) are really interested to find out, we can make a separate topic for that)
    reW likes this.
  14. Kingof2v1

    Kingof2v1 Member

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    I agree with most other posters here.

    The thing I find worst about the patch is the rerolls. It allows too much customization and makes this game feel 'easier'. Under current conditions I can re-roll countless times until I get the perfect composition. This does not feel fun. I'd prefer the current system if you were limited to 1-2 rerolls.

    Secondly, the movement speed changes I don't understand. You say it is to make less stale/slow moments and make the game more fluid for new players. I don't get that. Ask any new player and they will be happy to have that time in-between rounds taking longer. They are new to the game and still learning the interface, how to play, strategies, deciding next round etc... so the extra time is welcome for newcomers.
    SirCloud likes this.
  15. Pilferer

    Pilferer Member

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    I have 2645 hours in this game. I want to say that I too do not like most of the changes to the game. I don't like the removal of the supply or the reroll. And because of this you have nerfed T1 which I think is a terrible idea. But there have been changes in the past that I have hated as well, like the gate. I have had to get used to it. No matter what changes are made I am sure that some people will be against them. That being said, you have drastically changed the game and I get the impression from everything that has been said you did it for the sole purpose of helping out new players. At some point you have to realize that this isn't the game that we have all come to enjoy and you will lose some long time players. Will you really pick up new players from these changes? I don't think so. I think you should of focused on your plan to get the server ready for a free to play weekend and worked on the tutorial. Just my two cents.....
    SirCloud and Troll Eater like this.
  16. IggyPopAli

    IggyPopAli Member

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    i find it quite remarkable that every bigger patch only removes stuff
    4v4 removed
    Legions removed
    merc cap removed
    supply removed

    all that to grow the game, yet the game doesnt grow and old players leave.
    and now that you have some massive competition through all these dota auto battlers,
    im a bit concerned that this game will never really take off.
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2019
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  17. Cornep

    Cornep Member

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    Depth in simplicity. This is clearly gearing the game to be more in depth in the areas that remain.
    Legions were essentially copy 1 build, no legions in ranked = complexity
    4v4 not in ranked so you can focus all your attention to 2 people instead of 4.
    managing mercs was tough, not more attention can be spared elsewhere
    supply was hard mechanic, clearly removed to make the game more competitive for newer players.

    See, 10/10 patch
    Seraphin likes this.
  18. GvR Mr Mister

    GvR Mr Mister Member

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    Pls revert to 0.9, seems like all patches didnt add anything. just copy ltd1 with all wc3 flaws
    Every unit has to be equal, i cant play a game that is not perfectly balanced.
    Im only 13 yo, so i cant wait for changes. CHANGE NOW (i payed $20 and have spend 4000 hours so do what i say)!
  19. Xarku

    Xarku Member

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    GvR Mr Mister likes this.
  20. GvR Mr Mister

    GvR Mr Mister Member

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