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Please disallow randos from going nobuild worker push in Classic

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by spiderman, Oct 25, 2019.

  1. spiderman

    spiderman Member

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    Every 3rd game, some bronze player does it and it just ruins the game regardless of which team you're on. If it worked in any situation other than 8 players under 1100 Elo, I'd be fine with it, but it's a waste of everyone's time and deserves an early leaver penalty.
     
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  2. EpvpDani

    EpvpDani Developer Staff Member

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    While I don't think we should enforce or discourage specific metas in the game I agree that it might be annoying to play with or against someone who decides to do it without communication and that there might be some tools we could introduce to help players who want to play nobuild to vote or somehow get the consent of their teammate. Because if you ask your teammate and they dont agree it might be considered griefing a game but most people who do this are new and dont know it so its kinda difficult to punish them for something that isnt communicated clear enough from our side, in my opinion.
     
  3. Dimlhugion

    Dimlhugion Member

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    I agree with Dani in that most of the time, people who do a no-build or some variant thereof are still learning the nuances of the game and that we should try to convey more useful information to them in these situations, rather than slapping them with penalties.

    When I see someone employ such a "strategy" I usually try to communicate with them and help them to understand the following 4 points:

    1.) Your leaks will only give you PARTIAL bounty back when caught in the middle.

    2.) Your leaks will give EXTRA gold to the opposing team.

    3.) Your leaks extend the duration of the wave, allowing more mythium to be harvested, which translates to harder sends being received the following wave.

    4.) Depending on the strategy your team mates are employing, having to catch an entire wave of leaks could ruin their strategy (like if someone starts with Egg on 2, and you leak wave 2 entirely, that's a high chance of breaking the egg with 2 stacks).

    This is easier said than done though, especially if there's a language barrier. Perhaps we could incorporate some of this info into the leak message? I know you can already see Gold gained from Enemy Leaks and Enemy Gold gained from Your Leaks if you mouse over your name in the lower left corner of the game screen, and I know you also see a Gold number pop up when a creep is killed, but my concern is that players - especially if they're newer - might not know these things, or might not be actively looking for/at those figures, or might not know what to make of that information even if they do happen to see it.

    It doesn't have to spam everyone's screen, just the person who leaks: Give them somewhat detailed info inot the chat box, such as "You Leaked 100% of Wave 2. Your Total Reward for this wave has been reduced by X which will be split among the opposing team." Where X = Wave_clear_gold - (Wave_clear_gold * reduction_multiplier)

    So for example, if the wave would normally yield 90 gold, and the reduction penalty is 40% (meaning the leaker gets 40% back, and the opposing team gets the remaining 60%), X = 90 - (90 * .4) = 54 and so the message would say "You leaked 100% of Wave 2. Your Total Reward for this wave has been reduced by 54 which will be split among the opposing team."

    That at least gets the first two points across, which are arguably the most important; leaking hurts your revenue while rewarding the opponents with bonus money. The other two are things that are true, but require a bit more experience with the game to truly understand. But we should definitely try to hammer the point home that they're leaving money on the table for the other team to scoop up every time they leak.
     
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  4. spiderman

    spiderman Member

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    It's getting worse again. 90% of classic games have someone doing it and it's terrible.
     
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  5. Raily

    Raily Member

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    You spent too much time to write something that's completely pointless and irrelevant. Most people who do this strategy KNOW that :

    1.) Your leaks will only give you PARTIAL bounty back when caught in the middle.

    2.) Your leaks will give EXTRA gold to the opposing team.

    3.) Your leaks extend the duration of the wave, allowing more mythium to be harvested, which translates to harder sends being received the following wave.

    --------------------------------------------------

    But that's the strat now isn't it ? And it's a viable one if both the person who plays it as well as the people who are supposed to hold the leaks know what they are doing. In most cases the Drama or "bad experience" of the game that someone went for Income comes from the fact that one or more of the people involved don't understand the "rules" of this different approach.

    And that's probably because of how watered down this strategy is compared to how it used to be in Legion TD 1 and even in earlier LTD2 stages.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
  6. Dimlhugion

    Dimlhugion Member

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    Being "viable" and being "good" are two different things, though. Like, technically if all players on your team had good communication and coordination AND the other team did NOT, then sure, one single person doing a no-build strat COULD be viable in that very specific circumstance. But that's a lot of ducks to get in a row, a nontrivial amount of effort and luck involved, and the execution has to be flawless because you're giving yourself several inherent disadvantages for the first 12 or so waves, which are arguably the most important part of the game in terms of setup.

    I strongly disagree with your opinion on where the blame lies when no-builds go wrong. The core mechanics of a tower defense game involve building towers to defend your lane. When you intentionally DON'T do that, you're not actually playing the same game as other people. Yes, that can be a "strategy," but it's like cheese-rushing in SC2 or driving the wrong way down a 1-way street to save time. You're deliberately breaking from how things are "supposed" to be, and while that can be fine, it can also be dangerous and a large portion of the gambit involves simply hoping the other team doesn't know how to properly react. You're betting on not causing an accident or getting pulled over by a cop, both of which will COST you substantially more time than if you simply drove around the block like you were supposed to.

    And that lack of agency, the fact that you're putting the ball entirely in the other person's court, is the crux of the problem with no-builds. You need 3 other people to play the game FOR you while you set up your early 30+ worker base and establish your 1k+ income and you're praying to high heaven that the other 4 people are inept and won't greed their eco to keep pace with you. You need 3 other people to play a flawless game while THEY only need ONE person to defend your heavy sends. And it doesn't even have to be the guy you are sending to!

    It's just not a sound strategy outside of a very narrow window of opportunity.
     
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  7. Blasti

    Blasti Member

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    Overall i do not mind them doing it, but they are just a bunch of fools 95% of the time, when they have 100 workers and it's going bad they should build, most of them do not build anything and just keep pumping those workers, like they can break the one they send too, they've been feeding the sh!t out of that one the whole game, if you see you need to hold them up a little and don't do that you deserve a penalty, because you just intentionally lose the game then, i did report someone for that nonsense a few minutes ago.

    In the end it doesn't require someone to be good or not, i could hold my stuff and his shizzle ( he needed to build a little to slow down the wave, because boss damage was done all the time ), but the other 2 on our team where not the best, i can't hold 2 waves + stragglers alone, not in the midgame, it doesn't matter who you are it is just impossible.

    And since classic is the way to ( Learn ) you can't expect 2k Elo pro's in the game all the time.
     
  8. Raily

    Raily Member

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    Not being good doesn't mean you have to disallow it as the post suggests (weather or not you agree with my explanation of where the blame lies)

    It was a core part of the original game, and it was a fair part of this game until they decided to water it down.
    Have alternative and even unorthodox strategies is spicy for every game and it adds to the fun.
    I personally don't play this strat but I enjoy having a team mate in my team playing it.
     
  9. Dimlhugion

    Dimlhugion Member

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    Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating for the prohibition of no-build strats. As you said, variety is the spice of life. My main concern is that we shouldn't encourage or romanticize no-builds as they are more of a newbie-trap than anything else. The Fool's Mate in chess is named as such for a reason; the fact that it exists in the first place isn't the issue, though.

    You keep saying this strat was "watered down," what do you mean by that? Genuinely curious, as I've never played the original LTD. I was an avid fan of Squadron TD on SC2 for almost a decade though, and have been following LTD2 for years now as well, and I don't recall no-builds being particularly viable in either of those two games. The fact remains that you lose gold advantage AND you potentially ruin other people's strategies when no-building, and the compensation for this - accelerated economy - is really a question of scaling; can you outscale your opponents in time to make up for the huge early-game deficit?

    So with no clear-cut upside, and a host of downsides, I really don't see the appeal. Was it different in the original game?
     
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  10. GvR Mr Mister

    GvR Mr Mister Member

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    I rly dislike suiciders since they force their teammate to stay low worker. They gain power by weakening their team, this is a nogo for a team based game imo (when not plaing in a party where every1 agrees to that strat).
     
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  11. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    Cooperative games have an implicit social contract; social contracts are complex and change based on the group dynamic. That makes it difficult to have a simple rule like "Suicide is allowed/not allowed."

    When you enter a game of Legion TD 2, you are expected to play to win and cooperate with your teammates. When you're playing football with friends, you don't get to keep the ball to yourself and never pass because it's a strategy you like. If you do that and your team doesn't like it, they're probably booting you off the field and never inviting you back.

    We support players trying new strategies. However, if your strategy is highly unorthodox or generally frowned upon, we encourage you to get permission from a majority of your teammates. "Highly unorthodox or generally frowned upon" is open to interpretation, and that's fine. Allowed vs. unallowed behavior is, in part, decided by the community.

    In the short run, we ask that you talk with your teammates first. We aren't going to auto-ban you for not building or hunt you down, but if you're being reported in 90% of your games (for whatever reason), it's a sign that your behavior isn't liked by the community and it's possible to be given a warning or temporary suspension.

    In the long run, as the player base grows, we plan to introduce skill-based matchmaking to Classic. That makes it less contentious to play unorthodox or sub-optimal strategies.
     
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