Pls Give Disciple/Starcaller some Brain

Discussion in 'Balance Discussion' started by Cryologia, Mar 10, 2018.

  1. Cryologia

    Cryologia Member

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    I See Always when i build more then 2 Starcaller they focus the Same target.

    Like i had 3 Disciple,1 Starcaller and they send all 3 their Burst (3000 dmg) on a 400 hp unit WTF whats that?

    Please fix this -.-
     
  2. Justrazer

    Justrazer Member

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    theres nothing to fix, if i see my enemy has disciple/starcaller i will add on every send snails to force them to cast the spell..
    you can avoid this if you split them more on youre lane
     
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  3. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    This one's not so straightforward. Part of the skill of Legion TD 2 is positioning your units. If we make units too smart, it diminishes the importance of positioning your units.

    There's always a line in the sand in terms of how smart we make units. We could take it to the extreme and add logic that makes units behave like a Korean Starcraft pro, but that defeats the purpose of the game.

    Snails are meant to be a counter to Disciples. Keep in mind that Disciples are balanced around the fact that they sometimes overkill. If Disciples always used their spell perfectly, they would be the strongest unit in the game. And even with Snails existing as a counter, Disciples are probably too strong right now.
     
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  4. ithion

    ithion Member

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    Problem is the unit is frustrating so it feels very bad using it. It might be balanced to compensate but it might not be great to have units that just make players angry.
     
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  5. SiegeMentality

    SiegeMentality Member

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    I'm with Jules on this. If you're going to mass disc / starcaller, then you're going to have to position them better.
     
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  6. ithion

    ithion Member

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    The example in topic is just an extreme example, but if you try just one disciple u can never know what it will it, a basically dead unit? the best? a snail? the miniboss? Positioning is important and a part of the skill. But disciple is a very extreme rng unit that often makes people feel bad about the game.
     
  7. SiegeMentality

    SiegeMentality Member

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    Counterpoint: Disciple is like berserker. It's basically a guarantee to clear 10. That's worth 200 gold.
     
  8. ithion

    ithion Member

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    Not vs snails =p And no it's not worth 200g to hold w10.

    It's the most rng unit, the most unreliable/unpredictable and one of the easiest to counter.

    Point still remains, if it makes people angry at the game, is it good for the game?
     
  9. ithion

    ithion Member

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    Counterpoint: If units are to stupid it removes the importance of placement, since u can't be sure how they will behave.

    Imho, atm placement matters (obviously) but mostly the basics (ranged in back, tanks in front, auras at the right spot) and early in the game. The behaviour of units/waves (add in rng merc behaviour and their effect on wave) makes it more rng/luck based and less placement/skill based than it should be. Add rng focus/casting that has nothing to do with your placement other than in extreme examples (like in the first post) it often ends anger at the game.

    Some rng in games is often healthy. To much in a skillbased competitive game becomes just frustrating. I think it's way to much atm for it to be called healthy.

    In view of all this it doesn't really matter if disciple is compensated with better stats etc except for some players who don't mind losing a game or three bc of bad luck (since it will even out over long periods of time). Others might already have uninstalled the game by then (I did..but i'm to addicted at this point so I installed it again lol:().
     
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  10. Gajuner

    Gajuner Member

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    If u get like 10+ disciples the overkill rng feels fine, because there are enough spells to make a decent average amount of decent used ones.

    With only 1-2 disciples their dps output is insanely random on a single round. If that's only the diffrence between leaking 1-2 or holding it wouldn't matter to much. But leaking 10 even on 5 HP is still a huge gold loss. So having like a 60% chance of holding 10 just based on the disc rng feels bad (i personally really avoid using disc on 10 because of it).

    Maybe u could consider splitting disc nuke on 2 or 3 units. That way 5 disc hitting the same 2 snails is still insane overkill, while 1 disc would have alot more consistent results. (maybe make their spells like chain lighting in wc3 on 2-3 units)
     
  11. SiegeMentality

    SiegeMentality Member

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    If that's you're reasoning...

    I'm angry that brute is the only merc left with a special attack. The four eyes stacking damage doesn't count. IMO, every merc should have some sort of ability to make people actually choose OTHER mercs. I say this as the person that enjoys sending mass lizards on six vs arcane armor.
     
  12. Finite Afroo

    Finite Afroo Member

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    love this idea..! just make the dmg drop of by 50% per jump. so it goes 200dmg-100dmg-50dmg.

    that would be really amazing.! also make it a more viable starter unit. with little AoE.
     
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  13. Scary

    Scary Member

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    I think snail should remain a viable counter to Disciples, as it is basically the only one until you get enough Mythium for Kraken. But some smarter logic on Disciple would still feel better for the player using it, so if it is possible I suggest 2 changes:

    1. If 1 Spell from a Disciple is enough to kill the unit, it should not be targeted by more than 1 Disciple / Starcaller. So you would at least need several Snails for several Disciples.

    2. Use a logic similar to the king's spell logic for the Disciple's / Starcaller's spell, or at least for every but the first spell. Few things make you angrier than having your Disciple or Starcaller get to full mana again just to blast a unit that has only 50hp left. I don't know if it actually happens that often, but it certainly feels like it's happening often, because the times you notice it, you remember. The likelihood is also pretty high, since the spell is always targeted at the currently focused unit, which is likely to have already taken damage from the auto-attacks.
    The Disciple / Starcaller should either be able to choose a new target, or (the more elegant solution imo) wait on using the spell for when a new, healthier unit is targeted. If such a change would make the Disciple too strong, I think it would feel better for the player too nerf the base stats in favor of implementing this change anyways.
     
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  14. Nacccho

    Nacccho Member

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    I also think that Disciple needs a better AI. I mean, its ok to sometimes hit the snails, but they always tend to send on the same target, or on really damaged ones.
    You really rarely seem them at 2k. Because they just feel so bad, BTW they arent even a "garanteed" hold on 10. They are REALLY bad 13 if they send accordingly to you. There are very few reasons to use disciples atm.
     
  15. Seraphon

    Seraphon Member

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    I think, the RNG on disciple is to be sure mass disciple is not really viable or easy to counter. Actually, Disciple is not really strong and Starcaller should be used only for mana regen (with Zeus, Fire archer, Lord of death, Fire lord, Violet, Dark mage etc...) The thing is maybe, there is not enough unit which use mana.

    Anyways, I think Jules and Lisk knows what they are doing with disciple and have already thought about the RNG. ;)
     
  16. Nacccho

    Nacccho Member

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    Yea, starcaller used to be great. But the mana buff was also nerfed, also, against the builds that really benefited from starcalled were easily countered by centaur. With the exception of wave 20 i think.
    But i never really liked playing them, so i don't mind the place they're at. I'm just saying they feel pretty bad to me.