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Quality vs Quantity

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Akitos, Jun 7, 2018.

?

What would you prefer?

  1. Fully detailed high quality models (slow releases, currently 5 new units in over half a year)

  2. Okish/Rudimentary looking models (fast releases, possibly even a legion per month)

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Akitos

    Akitos Member

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    I've actually mentioned this various times on stream already, but I never really found the time to put it on the forums:

    I do believe the game could see way better progress if they decided to use rudimentary models for new fighters.

    It crossed my mind when I played the beta client of Slay The Spire, where the new character has so many placeholder cards which only spell "beta" or look like they're drawn from a 5 year old. Thing is: it doesn't matter. It's, just as Legion TD, an early access game, and no one would ever complain about some card images missing, aslong as they actually get new cards/characters. And I do believe it's the same with new fighters.

    Everytime Jules and Lisk told us why new fighters came out so slowly, they said it's because of the artwork, not the coding part or the lack of new ideas. So why not speed this process up by shifting focus onto quantity instead of quality?

    I mean, just have a look at Grarl. It looks SOOOO fucking good. Like really. It's insane what @Curing has done there. It looks so cool and I really really love it. But... it might look too good. If I could choose between having such a badass looking unit once a month, or an entire legion which then looks rather simple, I'd pick the legion every single time!

    As I said, the artwork Curing has done is amazing, but then again, who really buys an indie game like this for its graphics? Who gives a fuck if the model is fully designed from a 360 degree angle? Like, who even looks at that? It even has fancy graphics looking at it from the bottom! Can you even look at it from the bottom ingame? Like, does it really need to be fancy there? Or would it be good enough if units looked okish from the standard top view which you have ingame?

    Btw, you could also use temporary models who look pretty darn shitty, those shouldn't take too long to make, and then Curing could replace them with quality ones once she finds the time to do so. But please, don't let us wait for new content just because you want it to look perfect at the start. This game is early access! Nobody is gonna kill you if new legions look like shit for half, or even a full year, aslong as we actually get new legions. Like, I doubt there'd be anyone who said: no, please do not give me a new legion until it looks flawless from each god damn angle.
     
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  2. jitsuc4

    jitsuc4 Member

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    While I can see why you would want to use resources more efficiently by doing a model just once at high quality and be done with it, I agree with Akitos' approach in an attempt to accelerate the game's growth. Looking at other games it's not too unusual to rework earlier models to be more in line with the style of newer models.

    Also, artists will improve over time as well, so no matter how much work Curing puts in now, later models most likely are gonna be even nicer than the work done today. So I think in the long run there might be the need to rework earlier units again.

    If there are ways to cut the details of the models, simpler animations, simpler textures, I'd consider that in order to get out new content faster over getting out polished models.

    Regarding the placeholder models I disagree though, as that might influence people's first impression when picking up the game and I feel like you'd not want to present yourself with derpy models? I mean, in the example of STS it's in the beta branch, people have to actively opt into that. I think if something is in the main branch, it's required at least some sort of quality to avoid wrong first impressions? That being said, I don't care about graphics in games that much, if they aren't the focus of the genre/game. I mean, I played q3a for some years with high picmip values. And for LTD2 I feel like content and gameplay are way more important than graphics.
     
  3. EpvpDani

    EpvpDani Moderator

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    In my opinion the current approach is okay and should stay like that because when you think about having unfinished units in the game it will take some part of the immersion in the game. I mean why should they model new units at all? They could just not bother at all and place a cube in the gamefield that shoots spheres with some particle effects and thats all. Just to have new units and abilities?

    The current quality of the models add something to the total of the game and having inconsistent work would probably scare new players away, even when its tagged early access I doubt anyone want to play something that has half finished and polished fighters and half unfinished stick figure units. It just wouldn't be professional and consistent with the rest of the work and kinda ruin the whole thing imo.
     
  4. Dimlhugion

    Dimlhugion Member

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    I first heard of this game from a post someone made on STD's reddit page (STD = Squadron Tower Defense, which is basically StarCraft 2's version of WarCraft 3's LTD). What made me take the plunge and invest $20 into buying an Early Access copy was the fact that Jules and Lisk were so close with their playerbase and made frequent patches/updates. Kelson, the person who was in charge of updating STD at the time (and I think still is) is an amazing person but he's just really, really busy. His updates would come every few months, as opposed to LTD2's weekly changes. I bought the game because of the developer-playerbase relationship.

    What actually sold me on the game though, what really wowed me when I first booted it up, what kept me playing instead of just going "this is a cheap cash grab, refund pl0x" was the graphics. I remember the first game I played, I picked Grove and made an Antler. And I was like, "this looks really cool!" Then I zoomed in. And I zoomed in again. And I zoomed in again. And it just blew my mind the level of detail that was put into the game. Antler's antlers have ribbons that change color depending on what color your spawn was! And the ranged units have different attacks! Rangers shoot arrows, Daphnes shoot slings, the Lizard mercs shoot spears for some reason!

    It just looked really, really cool and very professionally done. Akitos is right in the sense that I would have been ready and willing to accept models not even half as detailed as they were - it was Early Access after all - but the fact that they were so polished really stood out and spoke to me.

    It said, "here's a team that really cares about every facet of their product, from mechanics to presentation."

    To sacrifice that now, to go from having different colored antlers on Antler to just a generic "moo-cow" graphic, would be doing this game a grave disservice. When a refund is only a few clicks away, first impressions matter. What do you think when you see a car covered in mud and pollen, with chipped and faded paint underneath? You think negative thoughts. Maybe you're willing to give the car the benefit of the doubt and see how it runs, but that's starting off on the wrong foot. That's starting off with the thoughts of "why does this car look like a train wreck?"

    My first thoughts when I saw THIS car were "why does this car look SO DAMN GOOD?!" That's a big difference. That's what allowed the LTD2 team to keep my $20.

    Never underestimate the power of first impressions. Don't sacrifice quality mid-way through production just to meet an accelerated schedule.
     
  5. Themryon

    Themryon Member

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    i voted for quantity, but i can understand the arguments for quality.
     
  6. Twig

    Twig Member

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    I usually like to finish work before i start new one for my own organisation..
    So id understand when the devs dont want to release unfinished models.
     
  7. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    This is a great point, Akitos. Lisk, Jean, and I had a discussion about this a few days ago and decided to do the following:
    1. Hire more freelance artists. This is already done. I just hired 3 new modelers yesterday. Curing is going to switch focus to concept art, but we may also need to hire 1 more concept artist. If all goes well, Atlantean should be fully released by the end of the month.
    2. Consider recycling and retexturing some models for Legion 6 or new mercenaries. This would cut the production time of a unit from 3-4 weeks to 3-4 days and cut the pure monetary cost of each unit from $1000 to 0. We can't do this too much, but it's an option for a few units.
     
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  8. Roshkatul

    Roshkatul Member

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    1.Good news, considering we were promised like 1 unit/2 weeks, and right now it's been almost a month, and we technically only got 1 unit with it's 2 upgrade
    2. Recoloring some old units can do wonders as far as releasing content goes. I mean.. why not have a smaller recolored kraken as an atlantean unit? and so on
     
  9. Akitos

    Akitos Member

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    That's great news, but I guess you'll understand that I don't believe this until I saw it. Let's see. Maybe you make it this time :) Would be awesome. And thanks for considering this idea.
     
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  10. jqob

    jqob Member

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    Content > Graphics always, whatever game it is (personal opinion)