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Reroll at the start of the game

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Boris Payne, May 16, 2018.

?

Should reroll at start be a thing ?

  1. Yes

    48.3%
  2. No

    51.7%
  1. Boris Payne

    Boris Payne Member

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    Hey guys,

    This is an issue I thought I'd post here as I've discussed it with higher and lower ELO players than me. I'm only around 1500 so I'm not a top player, however have mentioned it both LTD discord and ingame.

    The idea is to have a reroll at the start of the game and maybe get penalised by not receiving the +2 income or something else (idk). I realise rerolls later on can lead to an extremely good build, however sometimes as you pick your rolls, you will get a surge of T2 dps +2 T6's and no tanks whatsoever, which obviously won't do any good. The game is great but with RNG pathing and a bad roll, there's only so much you can do regardless of elo and it just doesn't feel right.

    I've uploaded a roll I had. The initial choice was between these units, honeyflower and 1 or 2 T's. It was really unplayable. I remember Jules saying that you liked the idea of seeing what players can do with different towers, which I agree on, however with so much RNG right now, it's hard to take this game competitively (which is what you guys are trying to do). I really hope I can get some more opinions on this.

    Many thanks
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Seraphon

    Seraphon Member

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    I don't agree with Reroll. I really think, at the moment, there is a huge RNG between rolls just because there is not enough units and not enough choices in the roll.

    In the game, you have 26 different units at the moment and if you pick Mastermind, you have to draft 6 among 9. It would be better so you have only 33% of units in your rolls. At the moment, it is a bit hard to limit the RNG in your roll. But if you have to draft among 12 units for a total of 40 units for example, it would be probably easier.
    For me, it is obvious it's easier to play a Legion just because roll cannot be really balanced at the moment.

    However, there is still possibility to balance a bit rolls. For example, I don't understand why in my roll I can have 1 T5, 4 T6 and 0 T1. What the fuck is that kind of roll??? So I guess, @Lisk and @Jules could balance a bit the generation of the roll. ;)
     
  3. jitsuc4

    jitsuc4 Moderator

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    That's currently not possible and if it did happen, you should post your logs, because it would be a bug.
     
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  4. foliesseer

    foliesseer Member

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    You are guaranteed a T1, a T1-T3 Arcane and a I think it was a T4-T5? Or T5-T6, either one of those two.

    And idk, I would like to see some advanced weight system added so that you aren't guaranteed a tank or a damage dealer, but that you have increased chances to have atleast one of them. And getting an extra choice would also be nice.
    I don't have the time to explain this much right now but I'll get back to this topic later.
     
  5. jitsuc4

    jitsuc4 Moderator

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    This.

    And regarding reroll I think: You get 10 units out of currently 26, that's 5.311.735 possible rolls, without taking the guaranteed units into consideration. Then it would be a bit lower, Jules said what the actual number was (on Feb 2nd, so that's before the atlantean units came):

    By now it would be a couple of combinations added to that. From those 10 you choose 6, so basically 210 possible picks with no regard to how useful/playable any particular pick might be.

    While on one hand I'd like to see a reroll mechanic, because it can be nice in a couple of situations and can ease your mind if you get a better roll, it doesn't really do anything. You could end up with a similar roll that you might find unplayable or not strong enough. On the other hand, the reroll mechanic wouldn't hurt that much either, because you only get another roll out of a myriad of possible rolls. A simple reroll pre-wave 1 doesn't actually change that much in the long run. It could help with the currently available units, since it's less likely to get let's say all pierce rolls twice in a row. Add a couple of more units and you'll not really benefit from another roll that early.
     
  6. Lisk

    Lisk Director Staff Member

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    I was thinking if we start with guaranteeing no more than 3 T1s or 3 T6's and it might help get rid of the cases that feel really bad.
     
  7. foliesseer

    foliesseer Member

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    It's a start :p.

    But please consider using a weight system. I can give you an example on how it will work:

    Guaranteed:
    ¤ 1x T1 Tower
    ¤ 1x T1-T3 Arcane Tower
    ¤ 1x T4-T5 Fighter

    Exceptions:
    ¤ No more than 3 towers of the same tier.

    Weights:
    Tier 1:
    10, then 5.
    Tier 2: 20, then 10 and then 5.
    Tier 3: 20, then 5.
    Tier 4: 15, then 5.
    Tier 5: 15, then 5.
    Tier 6: 15, then 5.

    Note that these are the base weights and they can be adjusted individually for each tower if wished.

    "Rolling" Phase
    First you roll the guaranteed rolls. These are not affected by the standard weights, but by their own individual weights.

    You start off with the Arcane roll. During the T1-T3 Arcane roll, all units have a weight of 20, except for DPS arcane units which have a weight of 5 (75% reduction). Right now, the only DPS Arcane unit in the T1-T3 range is Aqua Spirit, so only Aqua Spirit will have a weight of 5 for now.
    The weights are Aqua Spirit (5), Wileshroom (20), Peewee (20) and Gargoyle (20). That's a total of 65. Now, you roll a random number between 1 and 65. If you roll 1-5, you get Aqua Spirit. If you roll 6-25, you roll Wileshroom, etc.
    With the current example, Aqua Spirit will only appear 5/65 times (~7,7%) and the other units will appear 20/65 times (~30,8%)
    Rolling Arcane units like this will not guarantee you an arcane tank, but it does give you favourable odds.

    Then you roll a T1. If you already got an Arcane T1 (which is only Peewee right now), you skip this roll.
    Again, you roll between all T1's. Right now, it's just 4 towers and those are Proton (1), Buzz (1), Peewee (1) and Bone Warrior (1), which is just 1/4 or 25%.
    However, if you want to reduce the appearance rate of a certain tower, you can easely do so. Does the data show Bone Warrior is picked 50% of the time and all other T1's are picked 16,7% of the time? Then you might want to consider to make Protons, Buzz' and Peewees weigh 3 instead of 1. So then it's Proton (3), Buzz (3), Peewee (3) and Bone Warrior (1). That means it's a 1/10 (10%) chance to roll Bone Warrior and 3/10 (30%) chance to roll any other T1. Of course, this is just optional.

    After the T1 roll, roll a T4-T5. Here you do the exact same thing as with rolling T1's, so I don't think I need to explain it again.

    So we just rolled the 'guarantees'. Now it is time to roll the 6 remaining towers.
    So we roll every single tower with the weight in the "Weights" list. So T1's weigh 10, T2's 20, etc. Again, add them all up and you get a total. For this example, we assume we rolled Bone Warrior, Wileshroom and Berserker, so the total will be 335. This means it's a 30/335 ((3×10)/335, ~9%) chance to roll another T1, 80/335 ((4×20)/335, ~23,9%) chance to roll any T2, 60/335 ((3×20)/335, ~17,9%) chance to roll another T3, 60/335 ((4×15)/335, ~17,9%) chance to roll a T4, 45/335 ((3×15)/335, ~13,4%) chance to roll another T5 and 60/335 ((3×20)/335, ~17,9%) chance to roll a T6.

    Since that's a wall of text, I'll summarize it here.

    With a Bone Warrior, Wileshroom and Berserker roll:
    ¤ Tier 1: 9%
    ¤ Tier 2: 23,9%
    ¤ Tier 3: 17,9%
    ¤ Tier 4: 17,9%
    ¤ Tier 5: 13,4%
    ¤ Tier 6: 17,9%

    Now, I roll Banana Bunk, a T6 tower. Instead of weighing 15, Tier 6 units now weigh 5 instead for the rest of the rolls. That also means the total is reduced to 290. (Base - Previous Total Tier Weight + New Total Tier Weight, so 335 - (4 × 15) + (3 × 5) == 290).
    The new rolls would be this:
    ¤ Tier 1: 10,3% ((3×10)/290)
    ¤ Tier 2: 27,6% ((4×20)/290)
    ¤ Tier 3: 20,7% ((3×20)/290)
    ¤ Tier 4: 20,7% ((4×15)/290)
    ¤ Tier 5: 15,5% ((3×15)/290)
    ¤ Tier 6: 5,2% ((3×5)/290)

    And now I rolled an Aqua Spirit, so the rolls are now this:
    ¤ Total: 290 - (4 × 20) + (3 × 10) == 240.
    ¤ Tier 1: 12,5% ((3×10)/240)
    ¤ Tier 2: 12,5% ((3×10)/240)
    ¤ Tier 3: 25% ((3×20)/240)
    ¤ Tier 4: 25% ((4×15)/240)
    ¤ Tier 5: 18,75% ((3×15)/240)
    ¤ Tier 6: 6,25% ((3×5)/240)

    Keep rolling until you have 9 total units to choose from.

    TL;DR:
    The weights system is good because multiple reasons. First off, you now have a very high chance to roll an Arcane unit that is also a tank. Second, it also gives a high chance to get an unit from all tiers. Third, it allows for individual balancing on how much certain towers appear.

    Also please take the numbers with a grain of salt. It's just so I can give a decent example on how it works :D.

    EDIT: The example only takes in consideration the 4 base Legions (Element, Grove, Mech and Forsaken). Again, it doesn't really matter since it's an example but I wanted to point that out anyway.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2018
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  8. CORR0S1VE

    CORR0S1VE Member

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    I'm with Lisk here - Start with the edge cases, and fix things that are definitely broken, rather than risk breaking more things.

    The weight system is good, but I think the next step (if needed) should be putting guarantees on "One unit of each armour+damage type".
     
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  9. Seraphon

    Seraphon Member

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    I really like the system of weight proposed by Foliesser!

    But it's still a start proposed by Lisk ;)
     
  10. Akitos

    Akitos Member

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    Uhm, how exactly is something like peewee garg aqua flower butcher firelord unplayable (the roll you had). That's actually a pretty good roll.

    --

    Gonna respond to the topic later on. CBA to write a long text from bed :D One thing for sure tho: I am 100% on the side of giving mastermind the opportunity to reroll before selecting. It's a much needed change and I am saying this ever since 2v2 has been announced... It's a fucking shame that we didn't get a pre select reroll with the introduction of 2v2, considering how drastically the importance of a roll increases with less players. I suggest a reroll system similar to mulligans in some CCGs tho. In Magic for example you can mulligan as many times as you like (get a new starting hand), but everytime you do, you decrease the size of your opening hand by 1. I'd suggest having 10 units to choose from at the start (as we do now), and then 8 after a reroll, and 6 (so basically no choices left) after the second reroll. Tho the second is not necessary. One reroll would do.
     
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  11. jitsuc4

    jitsuc4 Moderator

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    And how would you prevent a similar roll the second time around? Or would people be happy, if they just get a reroll, no matter the result? The odds won't change if you just reroll using the same ruleset, since it's even possible to get the same roll, albeit it's rare. And just as an example, on one of your recent streams you played LTD1 and rerolled and yet you weren't happy with the roll, even wanting to go back to the old roll. That's why (and my post above) I don't think a simple reroll changes anything and there will be complaints afterwards as well.

    I prefer Lisk's approach of taking care of extreme cases, even if it might need adjustments later on.
     
  12. Akitos

    Akitos Member

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    That's because I played purely for fun and rerolled despite having a perfectly playable roll just because I didn't like it. That's my own fault, not the systems. A reroll should not guarantee a better roll. It should be an option tho for cases where a roll is unplayable in a sense that both players lack anti tower for the same waves, leaving you in a very massively disadvantageous position (happens quite a lot in 2v2 sadly...). Most common example: both players having no anti 15. Yes, you can sometimes try to make a game end before that, by forcing a starved game for example. That does not always work and if the enemy team wants it, they can easily make the game go to 15 and then sort of have a default win through you not having any anti units (especially with stuff like giant snail in play). Same applies to anti 13 pretty often, or even lack of natural/fortified on both players to handle 9. 10 is another wave where it sometimes happens that neither of the players has anything that can hold a big send, no matter their value. All those things are simply way more likely to happen with less players. It's a very common issue known in LTD1 aswell (especially bad in 1v1, but also in 2v2), and it's only logical. Decrease the number of coin flips and you're more likely to have uneven results, no matter which game. Aslong as there is rng involved, the importance of said rng is going to increase with less variables; in this case: less players. Fucking give us a reroll already.

    I can give you many reasons to why a pre selection reroll would be good, feel free to tell my why it's not. I don't see any real downside.
     
  13. jitsuc4

    jitsuc4 Moderator

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    My post above (#5) already explained why another roll doesn't change anything in my opinion. There's too many combinations possible and no guarantee the reroll grants any advantage. You might not get the anti unit your mate is missing, so the reroll didn't do anything in that situation. I agree that with more players you can organize better to be good against specific waves, but that's not really an issue of no reroll but rather the limited number of picks you're getting. Not all picks work well together, so just having the "magical" anti unit doesn't solve the problem sufficiently, since I'd wager most rolls include a unit you're looking for (to hold that critical wave your mate sucks on), but that might not fit with the remaining 5 units you need to pick. It also might be a case of too few units that are anti anything specifically. Or like you mentioned, you can force a starved game in some cases. If your roll is bad mid/late or you suck on w15, maybe the play should be to all-in before that wave. There's all kinds of possible game plans and it might not be a great idea to force having both teams equipped with anti-everything.

    But I'd be interested why you think a reroll solves the issue of a bad roll. After you mentioning the 2v2 and the impact rolls have, it rather seems like the roll-mechanic of 4v4 doesn't transfer all that well to 2v2 and maybe needs a remake (because again, I don't see how a reroll changes the impact your roll has).
     
  14. holepercent

    holepercent Member

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    For starters, removing the extremes such as 4x t1 or 4x t6 would go some way in eliminating the 'unplayable' rolls. Would rather see the extremes being eliminated rather than having additional guarantees.

    A simple reroll does give you a second chance at something better, but the chances of missing a key component remains the same, or even worse if you have less choices.
     
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  15. Mick

    Mick Member

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    I voted for "no". Honestly, I agree with almost everything @Akitos says. The difference, however, is in the number of units you can roll. With LTD1, even a free RR made so many possibilities that you almost never have the same roll. With the amount of units in LTD2, people will re-roll when they don't have some standard build and are unlikely to not roll one of the 5 or so standard units to start with in 2 rolls. So at the moment, it will only lead to more boring standard games in my opinion. As soon as there are more races, I would be in favor of a re-roll too, especially in 2v2 for the counters against certain levels.

    Maybe atm, a standard re-roll possibility for everyone on level 10 could be a compromise.
     
  16. Akitos

    Akitos Member

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    Well, you're one of the few people here who actually played LTD1 with and against good players.. I wouldn't be surprised if we agreed on many things regarding questionable choices made in LTD2 :/ It just gets more and more obvious that Jules/Lisk weren't the ones making LTD Mega. LTD 3.41 was the thing that made LTD real big (and competitive) and LTD2 should be based on that, but it ain't. Instead LTD2 feels more like a successor of LTD 1.6b, which has DIED OUT for a reason. LTD has evolved so much throughout the years in WC3, and with LTD2 it feels like we're doing this progress all over again and haven't learned anything from the past, which is sad but not surprising. Afterall, neither Jules nor Lisk were part of this progress, so we can't really blame them for that.
     
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  17. Mick

    Mick Member

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    Agreed. I don't want to derail this thread, but some of the mechanics here that I think are missed opportunities:
    *One-dimensional use of lumber (no king-ups). Imagine how much more fun this game would instantly become if you would need to decide if they are upping king or saving if they aren't sending a round.
    *Leaking gold system (very hard to go any other strats than both holder, no incomer strats)
    *Too much visibility of enemies, which leads to less risks taken
    *Too big influence of income
    * Because of 2v2 and few units, your roll matters too much (addressed in this topic)
    *Too few decision making and mind-games in general. All of the decision making has been very much dumbed down compared to ltd mega.
    *Also in general, too much focus is put on the art of holding, while teamwork, mindgames, strategy is much more important in a static game like this. I mean, we all know how to hold after playing this for a while, that should be only the 'starting point' of playing this game, not the end point.

    Hope those issues will all still be addressed in the right way. :)
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2018
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