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Roshkatul's fictive patch notes (now with blackjack and hookers)

Discussion in 'Balance Discussion' started by Roshkatul, Sep 16, 2018 at 11:41 AM.

  1. Roshkatul

    Roshkatul Member

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    Bare in mind that I don't have any of the data the devs have, so I have no idea about winrates and anything else. I don't even have a spreadsheet of dps/hp-gold value, I'm just going around on pure feeling. I'll write this "fictive patch note" with another approach than the devs have so far.

    Aim of this "fictive patch":
    1. Fixed Bone warriors and it s upgrades being op and really high value early game
    2. Trying to reduce the effectiveness of ranged t1 spam
    3. An alternate way of reworking aqua spirits
    4. A rework for pyro which allows you to nerf it further without making it useless late game
    5. A rework for aps/mps interaction with mech units, removing the broken interaction with Zeus while providing a new one with millenniums
    6. A fix for the boosted peewee/vet spam
    7. An alternative way of making violets and gateguards more useful besides playing with their stats
    8. A slight nerf for head chef interaction with really high HP units
    9. A small rework for millennium/doomsday, making the ability less rng and strong, while also synergysing with mps
    And a few others

    And maybe i'll get @Akitos to react to it Kappa

    Tier 1


    Bone Warrior, Fire Archer, Dark Mage, Bone Crusher [​IMG]

    - Skeletal regeneration:
    5% of missing health -> 4% of missing health

    These units have always been troublesome to balance in the early game. That's why I'm nerfing their ability, rather than their stats, since the brute bug was fixed and these units gained slightly more value than they should.

    Pollywogs, Serpahim [​IMG]

    - Attack range lowered from 350 to 300

    Protons, Atoms [​IMG]

    - Attack range lowered from 250 to 225

    Both of these units are cheap, ranged, T1 units, have way too much value as tanks and delays, because of the time it takes for creatures to move around the lane to hit these units. Reducing the attack range, is meant to reduce this effect.
    (these 2 changes will also become slightly more relevant in regards with the centaur change)


    Looter [​IMG]

    - HP reduced from 130 -> 110
    - Attack damage reduced from 11 -> 10

    Early unit spam has a lot of value, and looter being so cheap, it's way too spammable and way too effective than it should be

    Peewee [​IMG]

    - Boosting for several waves in a row, costs 5 more gold for each wave.

    Example:
    Wave 1 boost: 5g
    Wave 2 boost: 10g
    Wave 3 boost: 15g
    Wave 4 no boost
    Wave 5 boost: 5g


    Veteran (nerf)

    - Boosting for several waves in a row, costs 10 more gold for each wave.

    Boosting shouldn't be an ability which you can afford to spam every wave

    Tier 2

    Aqua Spirit
    (slight rework)
    - Attack speed: 0.74 -> 0.752
    - Aqua bounce now deals 40% damage to the 2nd target (down from 50%)

    Instead of nerfing aqua spirit over and over again, reverting the attack speed nerf from 2.36, and reducing the aqua bounce ability by a significant amount. Single target damage will remain the same, while nerfing the secondary target damage.

    Ranger [​IMG]

    - Each attack amplifies damage taken by 1, stacking up to 9 times -> Each attack amplifies damage taken by 1, stacking up to 9 times (5 times against bosses)

    Daphnee [​IMG]

    - Reduces an enemy's damage by 10, stacking up to 9 times -> Reduces an enemy's damage by 10, stacking up to 9 times (6 times against bosses)

    The point of this change is to reduce ranger's effectiveness on wave 10 and daphnee's effectiveness on wave 20, as those units have way too much value on those waves.

    Pyro (slight rework)

    Damage: 26 -> 31
    Attack speed 1.94 -> 1.60
    DPS: 50.44-> 49.6

    A really small nerf to pyro, and a switch from attack speed to damage, lowering mole's effectiveness against this unit (trying to make pyro slightly more relevant mid-game)

    Tier 3

    Violet [​IMG] [​IMG]
    - Health: 2100 -> 2060
    - Spell mana cost(and maximum mana): 12->11

    Removing some of the hp buffed in the latest patch, and reducing the mana cost of the spell, to guarantee a 2nd cast more often.

    Gateguard (slight rework)
    - Core hound HP 300->260
    - Core Hound Attack damage: 24->23
    - Spell mana cost(and maximum mana): 20->17

    Harbinger (slight rework)
    - Cerberus HP 900->850
    - Cerberus Attack damage: 72->69
    - Spell mana cost(and maximum mana): 20->17

    Similar to violets, gateguards are bad when they only get 1 summon, good when they get 2 summons and amazing value when they get a 3rd summon out.
    Instead of trying to balance the summons/the unit itself around either getting 1 or 2 summons, I'm reducing the mana cost of the summon, so I can guarantee that 2nd hound more often


    Leviathan [​IMG]
    - HP reduced from 2700->2600

    Tier 4:

    Honeyflower (slight rework)

    - Health points: 1170 -> 1350
    - Deals 10 + 0.2% (0.1% against bosses) max health magic damage per second to nearby enemies ->
    Deals 8 + 0.2% (0.1% against bosses) max health magic damage per second to nearby enemies

    The unit became broken after the Damage over time effect change. Ever since that patch, the HP was reduced heavily (instead of the damage getting reduced). With this change, I'm trying to head towards the old honeyflower, reducing the damage while increasing it's HP.
    The numbers are probably not accurate, and I can't test the changes I propose, but that's the general idea of how I would balance honeyflower.


    Deathcap [​IMG]
    - Health points: 3270 -> 3300

    (I'd give the same treatment to the deathcap, but I'm too lazy to find out accurate numbers, so this will do)

    Head chef [​IMG] [​IMG]
    - Skull Stew: Heals a nearby ally for 300 + 10% maximum health over 1 second -> Heals a nearby ally for 450 + 5% maximum health over 1 second

    Increasing the healing done to low hp units, while reducing it's strength when used on any unit with more than 3.000 max health. This is meant to slightly nerf combos such as Banana Haven + Head Chef.

    APS (slight rework)

    - Grants adjacently-deployed allies +3 damage and +8% attack speed -> Grants adjacently-deployed allies +3% damage and +6% attack speed (grants a minimum of 1 damage, if 3% is less than 1 damage)

    MPS (slight rework)

    - Grants adjacently-deployed allies +6 damage and +12% attack speed -> Grants adjacently-deployed allies +6% damage and +10% attack speed (grants a minimum of 2 damage, if 6% is less than 2 damage)

    These APS/MPS changes heavily nerf aps/mps interaction with other mech towers. Aps and Mps now grant less damage than before to any unit which has less than 100 base damage. Mech only has 1 unit which has more than 100 base damage. APS/MPS will have a good interaction with Millenium/Doomsday and their reworked ability.

    I don't think there's any broken interaction between this effect and the towers, unless I forgot one. This also makes aps/mps way more fun to use with units like fenix, kingpin and others, and it should not be broken, as these units are really expensive and hard to use around an aps/mps, unlike zeus.

    Tier 5

    Fatalizer [​IMG]
    - Health points 5500 -> 5400

    Starcaller [​IMG]
    - Health points 3400 -> 3300
    (this unit has too much tank value for it's DPS and utility)

    Tier 6

    Hades [​IMG]
    - Attack Power 160 -> 157

    Hydra [​IMG]
    - Health: 2700 -> 2600
    - Damage: 168 -> 164
    - Hydraling Health: 900 -> 850
    - Hydraling Damage: 56 -> 54
    - Health and damage reduction per stack: 15% -> 12%

    This might be slightly controversial, but I'm nerfing hydra even further, while lowering the variation between a 0 stacked hydra and a 2 stacked hydra.

    Millenium (slight rework)

    - Attack power: 310 -> 320

    Doomsday (slight rework)

    - Attack power: 740 -> 780
    Replaced both Detonation and Explosive Shells with -> Overkill: If Millenium/Doomsday Machine overkill an unit, the extra damage is dealt among nearby units as impact damage.

    Example: Doomsday hits a 200 hp unit with it's 780 attack, the remainder 580 damage (780-200) is split among nearby units)
    This makes doomsday always deal 100% of it's damage, nothing less, nothing more. Also has a pretty interesting combo potential with APS/MPS
    Numbers might be off, doomsday might need more damage

    Mercenaries

    Centaur [​IMG] [​IMG]

    - Attack power 115 -> 110

    - Increasing the attack radius/range of cleave by 20%

    I'd lower the attack power a bit, in exchange of increasing the range of the AoE attack, having centaur deal with Ranged mass of units (such as pollywog spam, aqua spirit spam, proton spam) much easier than before. (this is also the reason I reduced the attack range of pollywogs and protons)


    I can't post more than 20 arrows apparently
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2018 at 4:34 AM
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  2. SirCloud

    SirCloud Member

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  3. Seraphon

    Seraphon Member

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    @Jules , a good idea about next patch ^^. Thank you in advance for taking it in consideration :)
     
  4. Bluejin

    Bluejin Member

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    I really like that Vet change, nice idea Rosh.
     
  5. Akitos

    Akitos Member

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    I read all the changes and then found this line, lmao. No reaction from me, sorry.
     
  6. Marchombre

    Marchombre Member

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    @Akitos you should do a reaction, with one "fucking" or "fuck" every two words <3
     
  7. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    Thanks for the thoughtful suggestions, Roshkatul. Really love seeing stuff like this. I'll respond with my first impressions.

    This is a valid suggestion. I'd rather just nerf their stats for now so they stay strong early (it's an interesting niche). If they remain difficult to balance, we'll go with this suggestion.

    I'm not sure this is a good goal. Statistically, Pollywogs and Protons are balanced. And I see way more players massing Looters and Bone Warriors (cheap melee T1s) than Pollywogs and Protons (ranged T1s), so it seems strange to me that we would be nerfing these units in particular.

    Yep.

    I'm not sure these units need a nerf anymore. After the v2.27 nerfs, they are looking pretty balanced.

    Yep.

    I like the idea, but I also want Grove to have some way to handle wave 20. Even with current Ranger and Daphne, Grove is quite weak against 20. I'm not saying every legion should have perfect options for every wave, but I think it feels good if new players can "beat the game" by clearing the final boss. Let me know if you have ideas.

    It's a good suggestion.

    Tier 3

    Valid suggestion.

    Valid suggestion.

    I'm not sure this is needed. Tempest is already the least popular roll in the game (and low win rate), and Mech is no longer OP.

    Tier 4:

    Valid suggestion, though I specifically shifted them to be more DPS-oriented so that they aren't so OP when getting surrounded by the entire wave.
    I like this suggestion. I was actually going to do it, but I thought players liked the Head Chef + Banana Haven/tanks combo. Do you guys like it, or would you rather it be nerfed, which would open up Head Chef to be stronger with other units like Doppelganger, Violet, Consort, Green Devil, etc.

    I understand the intent, though I think it's a wordy/complex solution. I think MPS is already good with Fenix, Doomsday Machine, Hades, Hydra, Doppelganger, Fatalizer, Kingpin, etc. late game, in addition to being good with Zeus, Pollywog, Atom, etc. mid-game.

    Tier 5

    What are your thoughts on doing this and then buffing Berserker a bit so that it's more viable as an opening?

    Starcaller seems like it's in a good spot to me.

    Tier 6

    Valid suggestion. Is Hades too strong mid-game, late-game, or both? My gut says late game.

    Valid suggestion. I think Hydra is already in a balanced (maybe even weak) spot after the last patch. If it needs further redesign, I think this is a good idea.

    Valid suggestion.

    Mercenaries

    I'm not sure if this is a good idea. This seems like it hurts Centaur against mass melee and summoners and helps Centaur against mass ranged, and we currently see a lot more mass melee and summoners than mass ranged.
     
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  8. Roshkatul

    Roshkatul Member

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    Yeah, I consider regeneration a really hard thing to balance early game, as with proper positioning or some aggro luck, these units can have insane value, but with some bad aggro luck, you can actually leak the full wave. The regen issue leads us to another problem you are worried about:

    Well, first of all, as you can see, this change was slightly different than the way rangers worked before (back when they applied a 0.5 damage debuff)(you still needed 4-5 rangers to max out to 9 stacks, while with this change you would need 2-3 rangers to max out to 5 stacks.). Just wanted to point that out.

    As far as grove on 20 goes, grove has one of the best units anti 20, attack and armor type wise, the canopie. But the canopie, actually sucks hard late game. It's bad on any wave after 14 (and even on 14, unless you have ocean templar, it feels weaker than it should be).

    The canopie gains a lot of value from the regeneration early on (because the waves can be longer and the wave damage isn't that big, the regeneration having insane value), and close to no value later on (where you can't really make use of the regeneration effectively).
    Buffing canopies even further, would make it too broken early on, as it would be an amazing unit 7/8/9/10. We need to find a way of buffing the canopie later on, without buffing it early on. You could do it 3 ways:
    - nerf the regen by a lot, increase the starting HP
    - add a new ability which reads something like "Also deals X% of the unit's max HP". It is not really an interesting change, but it would solve the issue against late game and especially against wave 20
    - add a new ability which reads something like "The later the game goes, this unit starts with more HP". Like.. right now, the canopie always starts with 50% hp. Maybe there can be a way to code it in such a way so it starts with like.. 55% hp after wave 10, 56% after wave 11, and so on.
    Maybe there are a few more ways to do it, but these are my first thoughts on it

    Well, it wouldn't really be a nerf, as the stats would stay exactly the same.. Maybe I'm wrong about this, but i'm fairly sure that in starved games, proton and pollywog spam is really strong, because of them not really being cleaved down by centaur as any other t1 unit. I guess this issue wouldn't be an issue anymore if one of the new mercenary is a way to slightly counter ranged t1 spam.

    That might be true, but it almost feels as if the unit lost some of it's flavor. I personally liked the boost being slightly stronger, if there was a bigger downside to it. But maybe it's better this way, as I hated seeing someone hold a huge off send because of boosts.


    Yeah, I guess leviathan is on the weak side right now. But I feel like the nerfs could have been done differently, as in buffing the damage and nerfing some of the HP. The issue with mech was that the aura units had too much tank value for what they offered. I guess the leviathan aura also seems weak now. It's almost as if leviathan is the new old-aps, which wasn't used a lot.

    Tier 4:


    I personally dislike having head chef + a big tank as a combo, as it almost feels like it creates some impossible to break combos. I remember ashton liking to send big (like 400-500 mythium) into banana haven on 12, successfully (showing that even a haven can be broken on 12). But if there's a head chef, that combo is basically unbreakable on 11/12. Also banana haven is much stronger on 13 than it should be, if accompanied by a head chef. 4 eyes is the only counter to head chef +fatalizer/doomsday/haven/whitemane (i was really angry at seeing head chef back when 4 eyes wasn't strong enough of a send), and it's an effective counter. But if you spam some t1s like bone warriors or looters, 4 eyes isn't so effective anymore.

    I would have personally nerfed the interaction even more, but if you increase the flat healing too much, head chef becomes too powerful with it self (like those scenarios where head chef is left alone against 4-5 wave 11 mobs)

    Tier 5

    Berserker start sucks. Berserker is an unit which is really amazing early on waves such as 4/6 or 10, and not that good on any other waves (even though it's a fairly decent tank). Buffing berserker even further, would make it frustrating to send against on any of the waves mentioned above. If you really want to make berserker viable again, you need to shift some of it's value into damage, or even some of it's value from the ability into damage.
    The main weakness of berserker as a starting unit is the really slow killing speed (it 3 hits wave 2 and 4 hits wave 3 or something ridiculous like that), allowing mercenaries like lizard to deal a HUGE amount of damage, since the berserker takes so long to go through the wave.

    Tier 6


    Late game due to it's ability to stall the wave with imps. I guess nerfing the damage is a good way to nerf the unit without nerfing the imps.

    Mercenaries

    Yeah, i guess. Well, I mentioned in one of my older post that I really want a mercenary which counters mass ranged units. This was like a "sacrificial change" until we get one.
    Even though, it can still be a buff against melee units, since an increased attack radius might be able to hit more melee units.
     
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  9. Nacccho

    Nacccho Member

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    DOUBT.jpg
     
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  10. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    Thanks for the responses, @Roshkatul. I'll be implementing some of these over the next few patches.

    I get that this is a fun meme, but data strongly suggests Mech isn't remotely close to overpowered. Popularity of Mech dropped by 2/3 after last patch, and Mech currently has the lowest win rate of every legion, including Mastermind. Part of that win rate drop is Mech players, whose ratings were inflated by Mech previously being overpowered, dropping back down to their true rating. I've been playing a lot this patch (1900-2000 rating) and haven't felt Mech was abusive at all.
     
  11. Nacccho

    Nacccho Member

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    Yea i concur atm, veteran was finally handled. But i think right now results are skewered cause people are addapting the build still. Also is worthy of note just how much mech needed to be nerfed in order to become balanced. It really chipped hard at my will to play the game.

    I lost my ability to impartially analyze anything because i find playing against races rather repetitive, dull and unsatisfying as mm. And it's a completely unfair ask for you to balance out legions with MM, cause its right next to god damn impossible.

    Starcaller is probably my favorite unit, but i aggree with Rosh also. Its way too good all around, its a standalone great unit, that is humungous against certain waves, is a part of the most powerfull combo late game with hades and it also has one of the best synergies with a spell in the game currently.
    The nerf he suggested was really minor and sounds on point to me.
     
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  12. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    Completely understandable.

    I've said this before, but when I first joined the team, I actually talked with Lisk about completely scrapping the idea of legions and only having Mastermind. As a highly competitive player, I wish the game was only Mastermind. However, as a developer, I was convinced by Lisk that having legions is a good idea for the game. They (1) help new players learn the game, and (2) appeal to players who prefer a more consistent experience.

    It feels bad when Mastermind is weak, which was true in the past. In v2.32 (2 months ago), we introduced +3 starting income, 2 rerolls, improved roll guarantees (tank, mixed attack/defense types, etc.), and I believe we finally got Mastermind in a balanced spot. Mastermind has an 85% play rate and a 50% win rate and was the dominant pick in the last Masters Cup (outside of Mech being permabanned).

    Let's assume 50% win rate means balanced, >50% win rate means strong, and <50% win rate means weak. It's not as simple as that, but let's just pretend it's true for the sake of argument. Given that Mastermind is 50%, all other legions are going to vary around 50% (e.g. Forsaken 51%, Atlantean 49%, Mech, 52%, Grove 48%, Element 50%). In any given patch, it's unlikely for all legions to be perfectly balanced. Especially as we add more legions to the game, it's almost inevitable that one will be too strong. This isn't a big deal if it's addressed quickly. Every legion has been the strongest and the weakest at some point in time, and it changes from patch-to-patch. In the long run, it all balances out.

    The problem is when one legion, such as Mech, is overpowered for an extended period of time. That's my fault, and I'll do my best not to let it happen again.
     
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  13. Diocletir

    Diocletir Member

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    i believe that as well but to get this conclusion out of the pick/winrate is flawed.
    There are two main reason for the high pickrate which are: 1. Its more fun (not as repetetive for the people who play this game a lot) 2. Most streamers/ Youbters of this game play MM so a lot players will copy that.
    Looking at the win rate is fine, but not if the "pick" can/is on both teams most of the time. A game with 4 MM in it will count to 50% winrate (2 win - 2 loose) for MM in the sample. A game with 3 MM and 1 Legion which is the most likly scenario with a legion in the mix will count to 33% winrate (1 win - 2 loose). In the end MM will be near 50 (with an margin of less than 1%) cause of the pickrate.
    Obviously you might have counted that in and for the winrate just the games with legion in it will count, but we can't know that so these winrates dont seem convincing (at least for MM).
     
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  14. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    You make good points.

    Play rate matters in context. In general, play rate is a function of two things: (1) appeal and (2) power. In League of Legends, Ahri is much more appealing than Urgot, which means that Ahri will tend to be more popular than Urgot (and there's nothing wrong with that). If Urgot is ever more popular than Ahri, it probably means Urgot is too strong and/or Ahri is too weak.

    Optimality is when everyone is playing what they find most appealing, not what they believe is strongest. If people are playing legions but enjoy Mastermind more, that's bad. If people are playing Mastermind but enjoy legions more, that's bad. It sucks to feel forced into playing something you don't enjoy (e.g. playing Mech to climb the ladder).

    Mastermind is generally perceived to be more fun, challenging, rewarding, aspirational (i.e. more appealing) than legions, so we expect Mastermind to be more popular than legions (and again, there's nothing wrong with that). I think a Mastermind play rate of 85% is a pretty healthy number. I believe most players playing Mastermind are doing so because they genuinely prefer Mastermind, and I believe the other 15% are new players and players that genuinely prefer legions.

    Data always matter in context. It tells us something, but not everything. That's why I mentioned play rate, win rate, and tournament dominance when I was talking about Mastermind balance. All of those things point to Mastermind being in a good spot. :)
     
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  15. Nacccho

    Nacccho Member

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    What about spells @Jules @Roshkatul ?
    Dont you guys think market/investment/saviour deserve some love? a 20% total king hp saviour would be great.