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Saving vs sending every round

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Freshairkaboom, Dec 7, 2017.

  1. Freshairkaboom

    Freshairkaboom Member

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    Has anyone ever tried not saving? I've done it quite a few times in bot games lately, and it just feels amazing. I have more than enough gold to buy a worker every round after 10, and I rip apart any sends on me. I understand I play vs bots and that's why, but whenever I do the save strat, I feel like I can't keep up in value in the higher waves, and if I don't end them on that particular wave, I'm just so behind I'm almost not holding, and I leak at 19 every time. Whenever I'm sending every round, and my enemy is saving up, I just skyrocket ahead of them in workers and income, and not only hold their sends, but eventually start leaking them because I send them strong units every single round, forcing them to overbuild or leak to me, which they are hard pressed to do because they have less income.

    Anyone ever tried it in real games, like for real, with a team that does the same? It's obviously not good if you don't have a team that does the same as you, and nobody is willing to try in my solo games, so I can't really gather data whatsoever.
     
  2. xanarot

    xanarot Member

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    Income is done per-round-unit, so finite (20 rounds, 20x income). Mythium is done per-time-unit, so could be looked at as infinite. So a good save should always be able to beat income players, as near the end they leak 1-2 waves (due to lack of gold from pushing) exponentially increasing their myth gain compared to your income.

    Also, for every worker you gotta ask yourself 'will the game last at least 5 more rounds to return the value' and 'is the other team saving'. While the other team only asks 'can i hold untill <wave we send> if i worker'.

    So in an ideal income vs saving scenario, they should out-worker by multiple workers you AND have increased time from a leak or two.
    Means you gotta counter their send somehow, raw value alone will not win it, and you gotta leak small enough that they dont regain gold back from saving (or alternatively: you dont leak to the point where it compensates vs your own bonus income).


    Both tactics are valid, its just not an end-all-be-all strategy. Both rely on the other team screwing up, then snowballing from that point onward.
     
  3. Freshairkaboom

    Freshairkaboom Member

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    Have you tried it in a good amount of games?
     
  4. xanarot

    xanarot Member

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    Dozens in alpha. Full-income has been popular (meta-ish even) for some time during alpha, as most players 'just wanted to see w21'.

    What you gotta remember tho, is things like w19-20. W19 is impact, W20 magic. So at some point, latest during W16-17 you gotta gamble your units on anti-19 (swift/nature) or anti-20 (arcane). Its very difficult to hold both if you're not very overvalued.
    Do you start to mass arcane units to prepare to hold W20, or enough swift/natural units to hold W19? When will your opponent send?
    Since they see you build units (or lack of units) on 17/18, they got all the time they want to decide between 19 or 20.

    Hell, even if they go 19 as you predicted and your team succesfully holds, you risk having too many of the wrong units for W20 and suddenly leak w20 even if its a no-send there.
     
  5. Themryon

    Themryon Member

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    @xanarot: does that mean that if you see a save from 10-14 for example, that you can not just build value? What are the options? also send 14 or undercut?
    I'm trying to understand the viable tactics
     
  6. xanarot

    xanarot Member

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    You got 3 options when the opponent starts saving:
    - Max value. Means send income each turn, aimed at NOT leaking. So like snails, dino's, lizards.. what your opponent is strong against. Leaks is in their favor (more time for mythium) so you gotta focus on making the rounds short with maximum gold. Then you full-build based on when they should send (examine all 4 lanes, determine weakness, counter said weakness). No workering. So if they save 10-14 (no send 14) all stay on 6-7 workers.
    But if you go anti-14 (arcane units) and they end up to send 13, then you roll over and die. So you gotta align closely with your team who builds what for which waves, cause your 14 read may end up being 13 or 15 as well.

    - Save with them and undercut. If you send 10 and they didnt, they're already ahead, which is what often makes undercut very difficult to do. You'll have 1 turn less mythium to begin with (you send income, they saved) and another turn less on the undercut (you send, they're still saving). So undercuts are REALLY hard unless you both started saving at the same time. Also, if they survive they get bonus time and can easily push 1-2 workers more as they'll know they win the race if they dont hold.

    - Race it, try to send the same round they do, and hope they leak harder/faster/have weaker king. Often accompanied by doing some delays at cross to maximize pathing distance. But a bad call can mean they just send and you didnt, so you didnt get any income to hold with and there's no race since your team didnt send.


    So it all stands or falls with when you expect them to send, if you expect to survive the send, and what your wincondition is.
     
    Twig and Themryon like this.
  7. Freshairkaboom

    Freshairkaboom Member

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    Maxing value and building more than usual are two different aspects of it though. Who is to know you won't have such an advantage from 11-14 saving enemy team that you can spare a worker or two in between, as long as you consistently hold out extra resources for that save? Also, if you send like drakes or auras at them every turn, they consistently need to be higher value as well to hold, but it'll be harder for them since they have less workers, less income and less overall pressure.

    But I see your point. Saving is definitely a threat that needs a response, or you will just get steamrolled. I'm asking whether a softer approach with no saving and just maxing sends every round would be possible to weaken them enough to just end them, starving them of workers, or leaking them every round.
     
  8. xanarot

    xanarot Member

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    See my previous post when you asked about that.

    No saving/max sending means they're free to go aggresive on workers/saving without fear. Like if you income and they save 11-15, you are forced to build full, send full, and stay on 7-8 workers. Meanwhile they can push to 11-12 or so workers cause you keep incomming (no threat) and try to have 1-2 small leaks.
    Since they'll have so many more workers, time is in their favor on leaks, and you wont be able to out-income their savings.

    That means the game will end 15 (you die as they saved far beyond what is reasonably possible, as its a suicide push) or 16 (its suicide push for a reason).
    Only way to survive that, with full income strategy, is hoping your team aligned on their send correctly and all 4 have the right units to clear enough for king to be able to finish the rest.

    Now the irony is that if you perfect call their send (they 15!! they 15!!) and you 4 all mass magic damage.. they'll just go 14 (which is arcane, so all that magic dps is useless) and laugh in your face.


    So its a rock-paper-scissor game of full income/hard save (3+ turns)/skip-save (skip 1 turn here and there for a semi bigger send into a weakness). They all rely on the other team fucking up, because they make the wrong call on your intent.
     
  9. Freshairkaboom

    Freshairkaboom Member

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    Well, I would still like to see some actual gameplay of this, because at the moment, I see nobody going for full income whatsoever, so it would be hard to measure. Maybe what you say is true, maybe the bots are just extremely bad at punishing my full income strategy. I don't know, but I still find that it so satisfying to be able to go for a drake or pack leader every round after 11. Whenever I play save strat though, that's when I usually end up with 7 or max 8 workers.
     
  10. Dimlhugion

    Dimlhugion Member

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    The mid-game is a tricky place, and it mostly comes down to reading both teams to determine where you're weak (so as to predict when they will send against you) and where they're weak (so as to determine when you should send against them).

    I would generally not recommend blindly doing ANYTHING in this game, but if you have to err, err on the side of saving for a coordinated push rather than incoming each round. Remember, if they manage to kill the merc(s) you hire, they get rewarded with the income value for said merc. So by sending that lone pack leader every round, you're handing them 2/5 of a worker each time and probably not even making them leak in the process. If they do leak, it will most likely be very small, and unless your team members happened to have sent with you, your opponent will be the ONLY one leaking a very small amount, which means they recoup some gold from their team members catching, and all of them get that much more time to save for their big coordinated bomb.

    Assuming you stay even on workers with the saving team, you'll be sending a pack leader into rounds 12, 13, 14, and 15. That's 800 mythium worth of sending, split up over 4 rounds, for inconsequential (if any) leakage against 1 lane (if sending all on your own) or minor chip damage to the king each round (if all 4 of you are doing this strat and cause minor leaks each round). Compare that to the saving team, who dump 800 mythium all at once on 15, and cause massive leaks with a shaman/centaur + 4-eyes + safety mole to each of the 4 lanes on your team. Unless you managed to bite off more than 20% king HP per each of the 4 waves prior, you're not winning the base race there on 15.

    Sure, you'll have more workers, more income, (probably) higher value, and so yes, if by some miracle you survive their bomb you have a clear advantage going into waves 16+. But odds are you won't survive. Or if you do, you'll be the only one and will find yourself trying to hold 3 other lanes' worth of leaks. By saving a few rounds and undercutting or matching though, you deprive them of that 2/5 free worker per wave and you put the fear of God into 'em; they now have to worry about sending enough to kill you AND building enough to survive YOUR bomb simultaneously.

    I find the best players are those who learn how to effectively read both sides and adapt accordingly. Save-send strats are stronger imo than send-every-round ones because the savers get to dictate when the game will end; they choose a wave to bomb on, and they win or lose depending on the outcome of their bomb. That kind of pace-setting is quite powerful, and at least as far as mid-game is concerned I don't think send-every-round is as efficient a counter as a match or undercut.