The Future of Mastermind

Discussion in 'Balance Discussion' started by Jules, Dec 26, 2017.

?

Should Mastermind be buffed?

  1. No, it's fine as it is

  2. Yes, it should be buffed slightly

  3. Yes, it should be buffed such that it's the primary way to play competitively at high Elo

  4. Mastermind should be the only way to play

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Wurstbonbon

    Wurstbonbon Member

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    I dont think that chosing units in any way should be implemented in mastermind ever. There will always be that one tower that is super strong in the meta. If i could have chosen thunderbirds in every single game i play mastermind i would be glad to do so and so would everyone else be. Let alone combos you can achieve from 2 towers onwards plus the random synergies you can get from literally every other race.

    This is what i agree most of with from all the posts. Mastermind should be inherently random and playable on all levels. It should not be limited to a certain range of skilled players. It should yield sometimes bad, more times neutral and in some lucky/skilled moments to exceptionally good results for the "average not better knowing player".
    It is exactly that magic and skill to make the most of what you are given. It is like chosing a random hero in Dota 2. The more overall knowledge of the game the player has, the more he can utilize what he is given. Of course, over time, stronger towers and combinations will shine through and are the no. 1 "hope to get" towers, but what is mastermind if i can chose that tower now every game.

    Most of the problems discussed about and related to the MM topic is the playerbase and the relatively small portion of high mmr players.
    Those should be handled and treated seperately.

    I aknowledge though that mastermind should be buffed slightly compared to the other legions.

    I very much like the idea of giving the towers racial traits, but this has nothing to do with mastermind and should, in my opinion, not be correlated to or dependant of it.

    Again, with what i mentioned first in my post: everyone should be able to pick mastermind without any bigger problems. Of course you have to watch out for team composition and such, but that is with any race. Yes, you can pick mastermind first and tell your mates what towers you got, that is actually very common. I would also appreciate if the teammates could watch the picking process, that would make communication super easy, especially when there are 2 or more masterminds. They see each others towers, you pick this and i pick that and on we go.

    Although the 60s timeframe at start is enough for that. whenever you prolong that, the game gets longer for all other players. For what, so the mastermind has more time to discuss his choices? :D

    In the first part of your sentence you said you cant get same roll twice ever and in the second part you said want to get the same rolls more often. By chosing towers from different legions you break the balance in a way not possible to handle. The randomness was the reason to pick mastermind, you go full random and thats it.

    Now it needs a buff but i think it should be tackled more like giving mastermind the categories / tier lists from hybrid in wc3 LTD.
    You keep the 10 towers to chose from, but you are guaranteed 2 of lets say 5 tiers, 1 being auras / buffs or going purely by price idk and idc.
    This way, the intial thought of chosing from random towers is still up, but at the same time it brings more consistency to games. You can chose from 2 of all random crap 20g towers, and so forth. This is also really handy when you think of future legions and how the towerpool will increase. You remove the chance of keeping 5 towers that cost 25g.

    Also, by stating clearly which tower is in which tier, players can plan their builds around that and calculate with the odds. Potentially strong combinations can but dont have to be in the same category, such as whileshroom and tempest. This makes it harder to get that combination from the pool of other same tier units because there are only 2 slots available, but makes it very rewarding when you are presented with the two of them.

    You can calculate a little bit in high ELO matches by having odds for certain towers, maybe with the right balancing it is slightly better than the legions. Legions should be able to compete with mastermind though all the time, i want to see them as perfect equals. i dont want to be forced to play mastermind to stay competitive and i dont want to pick a specific legion just because my opponent is likely to pick mastermind.

    The games stay random, the towers stay random, you can get an advantage over legions by being lucky and getting the right towers or by your skill to see the links in between your options.

    The last part of my post came just to my mind while i was replying to the other comments, but when i re-read it now it makes perfect sense :D i hope you enjoy it.

    Also, the population / ELO problems will leave with a growing playerbase and everyone should always be able to pick mastermind, remember?

    Except for custom games or mastermind tournaments, but i mean in ranked and normal games, right?!

    I do think consort spam is too strong as centaur with 400 is the only cleave unit and their damage output in numbers is just a bit too strong.

    Cross legion synergies are always appreciated but have to be on point or you create the next cross meta :D

    The increase in starting time would be acceptable, 20s is a good deal. maybe together with the teammates seeing the towers to chose from of the mastermind player.

    idk if i would appreciate a 7th tower but it is one of the least invasive fixes so i think it could be an option.

    material advantage always leads to imbalances especially if you get good towers afterwards, its like you get rewarded twice for playing mastermind.

    So long, m
     
  2. Zitronenritter

    Zitronenritter Member

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    Why will it ruin Mastermind?

    If you could pick one unit (like I suggested) you would not always pick the same unit. There is no single one strongest unit, that is best in every situation.

    I disagree strongly. Mastermind should not be random to be random. If the approach of this game is to be competitive, there should be as few as possible luck based factors. Therefore randomness is bad. Still this game requires some randomness, to increase the variety of the game. It should make it harder to prepare for a game and increase the number of in game decisions.

    Of course Mastermind should be available to all players regardless of skill, expect the very first games maybe. But in my opinion normal races should be balanced well enough that it's easy for newer players to pick them. Picking the right units requires knowledge newer players don't have.
     
  3. FaithOfHeaven

    FaithOfHeaven Member

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    If you were actually experienced with mastermind and high elo games you wouldn't ask this. But let me explain this to you. I think there are some very strong combinations with aura's in legion TD. For example: 1. disciple with LoD/gateguard, 2. Leviathan with bee/consort/violet. These are just 2 examples but I think stacking multiple aura's like Butcher (lifesteal) and MPS (att speed+) and even Whitemane aura (DMG reduction) with particular units is also a strong combination. If you can chose a tower with an aura every game, u could have a very big advantage in every game > results in everyone picking mastermind.
     
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  4. Zitronenritter

    Zitronenritter Member

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    I am experienced with mastermind and high elo games. Even if I were not, no reason to be condescending.

    It would ruin Mastermind because it would you could have consistent synergy advantages over normal races? That's (besides avoiding absolutly bad Mastermind rolls) the point of this. Because with Mastermind you are in disadvantage, because you can not prepare builds in detail as you can do with normal races. That doesn't ruin Mastermind, that buffs Mastermind. If it's a too strong buff, we can't really tell for now.

    But this has nothing to do with ruining Mastermind.
     
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  5. Wurstbonbon

    Wurstbonbon Member

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    You are getting it wrong... The fact that you are able to get faithofheaven's strong combos (which i was talking about earlier, too) makes up for the fact that you might also walk away empty handed. Just because the mastermind needs some sort of buff, the solution can not be to preselect one tower to "make up" for the randomness. The randomness is why you chose mastermind. If i am able to preselect butcher every single game, that guarantees me:

    1. easiest start ever, 150g butcher, 100 whisp, every game
    2. lifesteal aura every game
    3. the chance to get something like aps/mps and further enhance the effect of my preselected tower

    Does that look like balancing to you? what is the sense of mastermind if my "buff" to it is to take away the randomness and guarantee a stable and safe build every game? so yes, it would ruin mastermind.

    Also, if i would be able to preselect / guarantee me a thunderbird roll in every single game i play plus the random synergies i am able to get, ofc i would do it.

    I appreciate that you think mm needs a buff, too.
    I also think your approach should not be thought through any further :D
    Opinions, right? :) have a nice weekend
     
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  6. Bolle

    Bolle Member

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    if u think it would ruin mastermind its okay but its not 100% sure because if u choose butcher i think i wouldnt use it at all as my all-time pick. you would have to pick one tower to adjust to your random rolls. but since you are absolutely convinced that it would ruin mm i wont argue against that. im just sick of getting mastermind players in my team which play worse in 90% of the games than a player who plays a optimized legion build.
    I think it all comes down to what you think mastermind is for you
     
  7. Wurstbonbon

    Wurstbonbon Member

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    Also again regarding the consorts, @julez i think they are so strong because the upgraded variant costs 85g and gives a shitton of HP, the first time you get 2 or 3 consorts in a game. they are able to tank a hefty amount of damage, especially if the damage is split up on multiple consorts.

    Like a violet costs 180g iirc and 2 consorts cost 170, but are way easier to get than the violet, plus they excel at their task (dps) compared to other towers
     
  8. Wurstbonbon

    Wurstbonbon Member

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    i think it is correct to have difficulties with mastermind instead of an optimized legion build.. Again, it is a risk i take, i need to have the knowledge to know what works good together and stuff like that. Also, once we all agree on how mm should be fixed, and with time, stronger combinations will appear and people will say, oh you play mastermind, better get those towers for early and then shift into lategame with one of those towers..

    Also, there are not a lot of towers in the game right now, and from the ten to chose, i am able to pick whileshroom, tempest and butcher way too often and boy those canopies are not to be joked about. Consorts get the double buff too, they turn from above-average-already-bees to beasts that dont know any mercy. And i have 2 slots left to fill missing damage types and such... I dont want to shut you up or something, im sorry if i was rude earlier.

    I just think that chosing one or more towers at this stage of the games' development would not be a good idea...
     
  9. ithion

    ithion Member

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    @Wurstbonbon The issue atm for most of us, especially mid-high elo players (1600+) are that MM have a low winrate, at 1600+ elo only 43%, which is ridiculous (races have 50-52%). This means that to stay at your highest possible elo you need to play races and not MM that's so much more fun.

    At very low elo the issue is not as big, since low elo players dunno how to prepare and play a race properly anyway, so Masterminds big weaknesses (that u very rarely can know if you'll hold, or have optimal placement etc and u have to spend more time thinking about what and how to build, u'll sometimes overbuild and sometimes overpush) isn't as much of an issue.

    This is why masterminds winrate go down at high elo, even though you need more experience and skill to play well with it.

    What most of those that have voted want is actually to buff mastermind so that it will be optimal for high elo players to pick it most of the time. It makes the games more interesting & fun.

    My personal opinion is that it doesn't hurt if MM is a bit OP compared to races in high elo games. We will all pick MM sure but we will have more fun that way. Atm I feel forced to pick a race so that I don't fuck it up for my team.

    Picking 1-2 fighters would certainly not make it so that everyone always pick the same 1-2 fighters. Not if they are skilled at least. Butcher+violets (I assume you mean violets when you say thunderbirds) would probably not be among the most picked anyway. I for example often discard them unless I have certain other units.
     
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  10. Daytripper

    Daytripper Member

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    I heard a rumor that the plan to buff mastermind is to add synergies between the races. I really do not like this as it will place more emphasis on the RNG of the initial choices, whether or not you have units with synergies, and takes away emphasis on choosing armor/attack types that will help you and your team's builds. The way to buff mastermind should to give the player more room to grow their skill, not a flat buff across the board.

    Ex of good buff- Gives the player the control of how strong/weak mastermind can be
    - Increase choices to 10 from 9
    - Increase picks to 7 from 6
    - Allow mastermind to build 50g workers, that are 50% effective and .5 supply
    -Allow team to see your choices(with slick ui so its not "overwhelming") and more time at start for coordination
    - Make mastermind only league so balancing MM vs standard legions is no longer an issue, and we can focus on more important things like nerfing cross and giving wave 7 a proper name. They are sentient beings with eyes and arms, are brave warriors even while rushing into certain death, and us humans dont even care about any of that and just call them sludge.
    - Allow mastermind to send mercs as allies to their own team

    Ex of bad buff - Makes mastermind strong regardless of whos playing it
    All mastermind players get +50g at start
    All mastermind towers have +15% attack speed
    Mastermind towers now have powerful synergies


    Imagine if fire/water aqua were different choices. Would you ever pick one by itself? The value of having both vs just one is too dramatic. If synergies are placed, I hope they are rather subtle like the levi buff, or late game oriented like starcaller. Also why isnt gargoyle a flying unit.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018
  11. Star

    Star Member

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    well just had a game where no t5 nor t6 towers to choose from.
    EVERY single unit had fortified armor.
    how to win with such crap rolls?

    you should get at least 1 tower each tier and if u want to buff mm i suggest u can reroll 2 of the rolls at your will.
     
  12. Wurstbonbon

    Wurstbonbon Member

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    all i am saying is i for example have friends who do not like to play mastermind and if they would reach a certain ELO range where there are forced to play mastermind, that would suck.
    It would suck because it would take the fun for them, so it would take the fun for me.
    Regular legions should be balanced enough to stay competitive compared to mastermind.

    I am not talking about the top 8 players playing their game vs each other where it is necessary to get the best rolls possible to have an edge over your opponent.

    I am talking about lets say 1600 upwards, cause that is a realistic target to reach and i am pretty sure my mates will reach it soon (1500-1550 right now).

    In the poll, as of the time i am writing this post, 41% voted that "mastermind should be the desirable playstyle for high elo". I understand all your concerns and i am a mastermind player myself.

    But still, please take into consideration the fact that 41% are only 32 votes, and only in relation to the other people posting/voting on this forum.
    I just assume that most of the people who write in this Forum either played WC3 LTD or put a considerable amount of time into LTD2.
    I think that might skew the poll a little bit in favor of you guys.

    I want your voices to be heard.

    I also want to remind everyone that 41% is 32 votes, compared to 7000-12000 unique daily logins...
     
  13. Twig

    Twig Member

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    Id really love to find a way for ONLY MM games.. that would kill all the MM vs other races balancing problems.. i liked the idea of voting beforehand as long the community isnt big enough for splitted matchmaking but i see that this idea do not please a lot of players..

    And i dont think more rerolls would help MM in high elo too much.. it would lower the chance to have a shit roll tho but even if u had a decent roll u would still have to freestyle in comparison to the planned builds you have with any other race..

    I really like the idea of inventing more cross-legion combos which cant be used by picking a classic race.. For example giving Proton and Canopie an aura which only can be used in this specific combo so you wont have any use from it by picking grove or element.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018 at 2:48 AM
  14. Koszatek

    Koszatek Member

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    Hi, I wasn't here for the discussion and it's pretty impossible to read everything now :D Can s1 get me up to speed if there was a discussion about a reroll and where did majority stand on it and what was the devs opinion ?
    I personally think if the devs want mm to be lead choice for good players reroll is necessary. Edit : I'm talking about reroll during the game ofc :p
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018 at 4:47 AM
  15. Nacccho

    Nacccho Member

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    Master mind is in a really good place ATM.
    The balance is perfect for the 4 legions, further changes should be done only when theres more legions available IMO.
    With that said, i really think that 1 or 2 extra legions needs to come up asap, people are getting tired.
     
  16. Twig

    Twig Member

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    Thats what mm gameplay is for lol
     
  17. Nacccho

    Nacccho Member

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    As there are only 24 towers in the game, and usually mm picks a familiar core for the early game, it still very few variations. At least in my opinion.
     
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