v1.75

Discussion in 'Patch Notes' started by Jules, Feb 12, 2018.

  1. Lyrcay

    Lyrcay Member

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    At higher elo a lot of games end on 18 u just need to know what to send....and if they save from lvl 1 to 6 u should just income sends or crush them on 5 because they have no value

    Can the higher elo people just try and understand that 1200 - 1500 will always exist?
    It's always going to be there. It's not going away. Your responses to issues in the lower elo meta is always... "It's not like that here."

    was assuming you were crying against w6 again
     
  2. gravitycrusher7

    gravitycrusher7 Member

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    Hey why MM algo not taking lowest ELO as a factor, instead you calculate avg ELO?
    As 1520 I still get matched with trio, the lowest party member under 1.1k which is really annoying. Their avg party with your algo 1.2k-1.3k IMO with gap between the lowest ELO in the game and the highest ELO, this algo doesnt makes any fair matches at all since theres no actual ELO for party and solo, the calculation only split avg ELO.
     
  3. jitsuc4

    jitsuc4 Member

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    As far as I understood, it was never the plan to have people consistently get to 20 or 21/x, the game is supposed to end at some point. So it wouldn't fit to make 20 much weaker. Maybe instead the difficulty of the earlier waves could rise quicker, so builds don't fall off so suddenly.
     
  4. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    I understand why this can be frustrating, but keep in mind that parties tend to perform better than their average rating. For example, a 1500-1300-1100 trio is counted as 1420, even though their average is 1300. The reasons for this are that the players are more coordinated, and in this example, the 1500 can shot-call for the 1100.

    When a 1500 player is matched with a 1420, no one bats an eye. When a 1500 players is matched with a 1500-1300-1100 trio, people lose their minds.

    I'm curious what you/others recommend changing about the matchmaking system. It's not as simple as just considering the lowest rated player, as you suggested. If we did that, it would match the 1500-1300-1100 trio with other 1100s, which is clearly unfair.

    I know a minority of highly competitive players want to restrict partying, and I understand the argument for this from the competitive integrity side. However, we believe strongly in the ability to play with your friends because it's more fun and allows the game to keep growing. In the future, when we have more players, we're happy to consider a queue with party restrictions.
     
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  5. Falafelrollo

    Falafelrollo Member

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    the game is bugged atm... after each game when i leave the score view i get a meassenge that i leave i agme and i can reconncet... know i tryed not to reconnect and get flaged as afk?
     
  6. ithion

    ithion Member

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    I'm just so confused whenever something like this happens:
    Honeyflower
    - Health: 1400 -> 1330

    Why am I so confused when these things happen?
    Well because u said honeyflower was OP.

    Thus I would assume you think of a nerf, test it and then release the patch. I don't understand why you again make a change, let the community realise the imbalance instantly and play one day just for you to hotfix it <24h later.

    In the first iteration of the patch u wanted to nerf it but you can not have tested it w1-w5 ( the waves honeyflower was so amazing it deserved a nerf ) so your change ends up buffing honeyflower start.

    Then we players realise it right away, and can exploit it for one day before you realise u have to do a proper nerf.


    What I'm saying is that if you change a fighter for a very specific reason in the future first make sure that it actually have the intended effect andi not the opposite ^^
     
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  7. Nacccho

    Nacccho Member

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    Joker meme game on POINT. Beautiful.
     
  8. Akitos

    Akitos Member

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    In theory :D Btw Jules, especially lower elo parties rarely ever coach their low elo mate, or do any communication whatsoever.. So yeah, in praxis, it's mostly a HUGE ASS downside whenever you get matched with a trio as a solo que player, because you lose way more elo than you should. Honestly, I feel like only the trio should get penalty, not the solo que player. Like, the solo que player isn't gonna perform any better, just because he has a trio on his team, yet he risks more elo. In fact, I often feel like you have way less impact on the game being with a trio, because they'll often force calls on you.
     
  9. ithion

    ithion Member

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    Just me who would much rather play with 1720 elo players compared to 1800+1600+1400 trio?

    The worst player in the game has so much impact.
     
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  10. Dimlhugion

    Dimlhugion Member

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    While I disagree with the tone used by Lyrcay, his reasoning is sound. Ideally, a competition/game/whatever would be balanced regardless of player skill level, but we do not live in an ideal world. Instead game balance needs to be a perpetually ongoing endeavor, with constant tweaks and adjustments. Does this mean non-pros aren't important? Of course not. But you need to take into account what the best of the best are able to accomplish when you build a framework for competition.

    I play in an in-house 8-ball pool league in my area. We have a rule regarding legal shots - first the cue ball must make contact with one of your object balls (or the 8-ball if you are on the 8), and then either something must hit a bank, or go into a pocket. Furthermore, if the object ball is frozen against a bank, something ELSE must hit a bank besides the frozen ball. Finally, if a non-object ball goes into a pocket, or if the object ball goes into a pocket you didn't call beforehand, it's a legal hit but your turn still ends.

    If any of those above criteria are not met, a foul is called and the other player gets ball in hand. Sounds super-strict, right? And it is. It can be very punishing for newer players. But, the reason those restrictions are in place is because some people are really, REALLY good at pool. On a player handicap scale of 4 - 7, high numbers being better, we have quite a few 7's in the league. These people will break and run consistently without giving you a single shot on the table. When you're dealing with someone like that, you have to make the rules harsh in order to even challenge them - elsewise, they will never, ever have fouls called on them, because once you know what you're doing it's ridiculously easy to just "hit 3 rails" or get a ball in via slops.

    But, there are restrictions in place AGAINST the 7's, and only against the 7's, too. For every 7 player beyond the first, the opposing team gets a 10 ball advantage on ball count. Additionally, 7's have to win 6 or 7 games to win their match point, whereas their opponents only have to win 4 or 5 (depending on the handicaps). Finally, lower skilled players going up against a 7 get to shoot at fewer balls before making an attempt on the 8-ball - a 4 would only need to sink 5 balls before shooting on the 8, as opposed to all 7 of them.

    The point of all this rambling on pool is that the system is balanced around the elites because if it weren't, they'd ruin the fun for everyone. Imagine if there weren't any restrictions on legal shots - the 7's would never leave the table. And imagine if there weren't any catch-up mechanics - there'd be no point to even playing if you were less than a 6. Yea, it raises the barrier to entry when you have all these technical rules on shots, but they're there for a good reason. They're there because the better players would be able to abuse the system without those technicalities in place.

    So to tie it back into LTD2. Imagine if the likes of Akitos or Ithion or Robbie (et al) weren't even factored into consideration during balancing. Imagine instead they looked at the bottom 50% and said "gee, 'most people' are having trouble on wave 20, we better nerf it." What would happen? Well, for starters, those games would go to 21 more often, sure. But what happens when you get paired up with someone in the UPPER 50%? And they make good calls with team save-send strats? Suddenly you never see 20 because your games are ending on 18. So then they nerf 18, or they implement a mythium cap, to try and get people back to seeing the nerfed 20 again. But then the "good" players just end the game on 16, or 14, or 6. What do you do? Do you keep nerfing and adjusting the game? Or do you realize that the game-ending wave is arbitrary, and the real problem is that good players will generally beat bad ones?

    Hence why they implemented rating restrictions, and penalties against premades, and are punishing smurfs. There needs to be restrictions against the elite. The game needs to be balanced around the elite. These balance changes don't always mesh with what's best for new players, but it's not like the elites are going anywhere. They'll still be here, whether wave 20 is strong or not. Someone who is capable of holding wave 20 (should the game get there) now will still be capable of holding it when it is nerfed, except with the nerf in mind they can skimp on some army value, which means they can push more early workers, which in turn means the game is even LESS likely to go to 20.

    And then, of course, there's the fact (and it is an objective fact) that newer players have less understanding of the game's mechanics than experienced ones. For example, someone posted above that it's "impossible to hold 11" now. That's just flat-out untrue. And you don't need 1700 army value either. I don't know if that poster is a newer player or not, they might have more experience with the game than I do, but if they have a lot of experience they should be able to come up with a solution to hold 11 feasably. I did, and I'm an "average" player.

    None of this means new players aren't important. We were all new once. New players today are tomorrow's vets. But you can't just go around throwing balance change bones to the newbies every single time they stumble. You have to cut your teeth somewhere, you have to learn how to fall and pick yourself back up. Otherwise the game becomes too easy, too shallow, and it dies from lack of depth.

    You have to balance around the elites because the alternative is to hand-hold.
     
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  11. SiegeMentality

    SiegeMentality Member

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    I complained about 6 before the nerf, but thanks for making it sound like I'm a whiner.

    Your post makes some nice arguments. However, it sort of side steps the topic here. The problem is that wave 20 is now exceptionally difficult, and the elite are saying they don't care. Not because they have found ways around it, but because they generally don't see that wave anymore.

    If we're using your pool table reference, it's like newer players wondering why a specific shot is legal and your elites saying... "Well, none of us ever bother with that shot, so why bother addressing it?"
     
  12. Gajuner

    Gajuner Member

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    I actually need to admit wave 20 is kind of stupid atm.

    Just very very few highelo games go there, yet everytime i get there the wave just feels super stupid.

    Its a fact u cant clear 20 in the highelo enviroment right now. (there is no way reaching the necesary value in the current meta)
    Therefore 20 will always end up being a base race. This race will always be won by big diffrence in king hp or heavy slow down of the boss.
    In terms of slowing down 20, Summon spam with caller/lod/hades ist somewhat decent, while daphnes simply outperform everything else hard.

    So 20 basically always ends up with sending as much as possible on 19, while keeping enough myth to get in the shaman for 20 (its the only merc having a reasonable impact in terms of speeding up the time the boss needs to clear your stuff)
    After 19 u then just build up as much slows as possible and win/loose the base race.

    There are rare occasions where you actually realise on wave 17, that the game could go to 20 and being able to adapt ur build to actually hold it would be a cool thing.
    Not even having the possibilty to do so feels wrong.
     
  13. awesomeful

    awesomeful Member

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    I thought that the difficulty scales up so high so that the game can end. 20 being exceptionally hard is in line with wanting the game to end. The problem really is that 20 is a boss level, so the winning strategy is to slow down the boss rather than kill most of the wave. If only boss move speed was based on current hp or something. It could have like 1000 ms and then have it scale down to 350 when it's on low life.
     
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  14. SiegeMentality

    SiegeMentality Member

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    I like long games. They're far more satisfying. In fact, I'd like to see waves 21 - 30 return.
     
  15. Lyrcay

    Lyrcay Member

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    currently a hard 20 is ok.
    if by chance we beat it and go to 21, the first three waves are just too easy compared to 20.
    21 should be the "time's up guys" but it's easier than 20 (if you dont go 4 or 5 waves into it), im not complaining, i dont like 21, it's too laggy and no more strategy, you just send everything you can.
    By being able to go 21 means you have a shitload of income/value, once we had so much that we "broke" the game, boss disappeared and we were stuck 20min because nobody wanted to leave and lose elo until the 60 min timer throw us out (Lisk said we hit the max unit cap 1000, no way there is still strategy with that number).
    sure it's fun to do that once in a while, but if we have a game like that every 4 games, no thanks.
    I think 21 is like a reward, that's why we earn a badge when we reach it and that's why devs made 20 harder than 21, useless if you can hit it every game.


    my english must be worse than usual in this post, sorry
     
  16. Atze-Peng

    Atze-Peng Member

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    Would it possibly be beneficial to make a solo- and a team-ranking? This would seperate the two and give room to make a smaller team-penalty?
     
  17. Dimlhugion

    Dimlhugion Member

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    That's a fair point, I didn't directly address the topic at hand. As for that, I would argue that it's a matter of opinion as to whether the game should even last until 20/21 in the first place:

    I think you'll find that many higher-ranked players play to win, rather than play to experience. They've already seen the end-game waves, and as Lyrcay says they've viewed as more of a "time for the game to end, it's gone on for too long already" sort of thing rather than a "time for the game to begin, we're just now getting started" sort of thing. Neither view is objectively wrong, it depends on whether you happen to buy into the "tower defense" aspect of the game more heavily or the "pvp" aspect, but the devs seem to want the game to be more competitive-oriented. You seem to subscribe to the "tower defense" view and that's why a hard 20 seems whack. As you said, you'd prefer a game with even 10 more waves beyond what we have now.

    My point of view generally speaking coincides with the "pvp" aspect; I have no qualms with ending a game whenever I feel like I can end it. I once won a game on wave 3 and wasn't frustrated over it in the least. I also think wave 20 should be difficult, because it's the penultimate wave AND a boss wave. In my mind, seeing wave 20 means the game had 19 chances to end already, maybe by the 20th chance it really should just end altogether so we can get on with the next one.

    But I can see your side of the argument too, since I also like to hunt for achievements, and some of them (like that elusive "have 10k army value" I'm still working on) definitely favor a longer game. Like I said, I don't think either view is wrong. But I do think the devs fall on the "pvp" side of things, for whatever that's worth. Obviously Jules and Lisk have accounts, they can post here themselves if they tire of me putting words in their mouth, but I would be surprised if they came out and said "yea, we think wave 20 should be easier so more people can see the 'end-game' content." I think they're more likely to say "well, we want wave 20 to be difficult because getting to 21 should feel like a major accomplishment - it's why we have a trophy for it, after all."

    At the end of the day, you can always create a custom game with like-minded people if you want to experience the totality of 21 waves. But ranked play is going to be full of try-hards, and we kind of just have to accept that for what it is.
     
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  18. Akitos

    Akitos Member

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    Oh please no :D Whenever games went past 20, it was somewhat good habit to !draw them and people did it quite often.
     
  19. Nacccho

    Nacccho Member

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    I remember people playing to 24 at least.

    Btw 14 back to meta? Feels like 15+ units + four eyes kill the king.
     
  20. Akitos

    Akitos Member

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    Yeah, lots of games are 10->14 these days. Sending 9 is almost not viable anymore. Even if you get good king damage in, you're gonna get yourself fucked on 10 if the enemies skipped for it. Grove is actually in a good spot right now btw, due to performing well on 10/14.
     
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