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v2.30: Angler, Bounty Hunter, & Kingpin

Discussion in 'Patch Notes' started by Jules, Jul 3, 2018.

  1. Mick

    Mick Member

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    In my games, the killing blows still give +5 for bounty hunter.
     
  2. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    Thank you. It's fixed now!
     
  3. Crazy

    Crazy Member

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    I do agree. I am also not talking about an average mech player. Look into the vids from the masters cup e.g. when KingDanzz played it to see how strong it can be. There are many players that drag the mech ratio down, as with every predef (just cause of new players) I guess. But since you are the dataman I might also be wrong.

    Considering the waves you can send on: i totally agree on 9, thats probably mechs weakest wave. 11 also is a prob for them (might not show in data cause of defensive legion spells) 12 to be a must send if you didnt send 11 cause you cannt go 14 and mech is super strong 13 and 15. And often you cannt afford to go 12-16. thats the problem. at the breakpoint of the game mech got no weak or at least weaker wave.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2018
  4. Nacccho

    Nacccho Member

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    I am still having trouble with seeing the spells occasionally. Legion TD 2 Screenshot 7-4-18 05.21.22.png
     
  5. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    To be clear, we also look specifically at high-rated data. It won't tell us if one player has found a perfect, unbreakable build, but it does give us a sense of what highly skilled players are doing.

    Mech has also been nerfed significantly since the Masters Cup. I actually knew Mech was OP, but I didn't nerf them hard enough because I had multiple high-rated players tell me "I don't think Mech will be played. We'll see mostly Grove and some Element." A few high-rated players also criticized me pretty heavily when I buffed a few Forsaken units, which indirectly nerfed Element, Grove, and Mech. Forsaken went on to be played 0 times in the tournament. Element, Grove, and Mech were all played. I'm not blaming anyone else - it's my job as a designer to filter feedback properly, but I'm just saying it was one reason why I was hesitant to nerf Mech more.
    I'm sorry that's happening. I made a thread for your issue.
     
  6. Crazy

    Crazy Member

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    I do understand that. The point I am talking about is not mech being super unbalanced (it probably has the best balaced units if you take them 1 by 1 but their synergy and how they cover each others weaknesses is damn strong).

    Btw is there a chance we get to see MM only next Tournament? Please <3

    Also happened to me after I dced, I think that came up (again) with 2.29
     
  7. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    Next tournament will have a Mastermind reroll and maybe 1 legion ban per side.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2018
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  8. Nacccho

    Nacccho Member

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    Sick!

    ~~
    I've been playing mainly to test angler out, and its still pretty bad.
    Even with the changes, you still can't start something else and then transition into it.
    The start itself is pretty bad, you rely heavily on having gargs or peewees to cover you early, and your game until 6 is just nightmarish.
    But yea, it can be absolutely humungous wave 7,8,9,11, but even with its damage/armor type it does very poorly against waves like 10-12.

    It is one of the most situational units, super hard to pull off, and currently you will never make use of more than 2 kingpins, and thats being super optimistic.
     
  9. Akitos

    Akitos Member

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    Poggers. Sooooo, does that mean we finally get a reroll for Mastermind in general? Or just for the tournament? Honestly it's about time. There is so many times where you lose purely due to your roll. The most common are 1) tankless rolls (no natural/fortified tank) and 2) rolls without a reliable source of magic damage. As with tankless rolls, you can sometimes play around it due to legion spells and shit, because it's mostly 9/11/12 where you get fucked over without tanks, but if you have a roll without spell dmg or any late game carry units, well... You pretty much lose by default if the game goes to 18. This issue got a lot worse since 16 has become meta again. 16 is so strong that you can rarely ever go for 17. Games are either 16->18 or 15->18, because if there is a send on 15, it's likely a low worker/income game, otherwise you'd probably end up going 16 instead, and in those games you won't have the myth to send on 17. Overall it happens way too many times that you get completly fucked over simply because either one or both players have non scaling rolls or lack anti units for certain waves. This is especially bad in starved games, as you cannot even compensate with high value anymore. The less leaks there are, the more impactful one player leaking becomes. For example: if I leak 3 creeps + brute on 6 in a game with multiple leaks on either side (on previous waves) the impact will be rather low. If I do that leak in a fast game with long saves and 0 leaks so far however... Well... That shit costs u the game against good players. Same in mid game. If the early game goes without leaks, having 1 player leak during mid game fucks you sooooo much, doesn't even matter if your teammate holds it for you... So yeah, rolls are WAAAY too impactful right now. It would be less bad if it was similar to wc3 ltd, where only leaks to king awarded gold to the enemy team. But here... One player leaking is all it takes to snowball a game, and you cannot always cover all waves with mastermind. Obviously a reroll won't magically make it so that you can always cover all waves, but you at least have a fair chance to avoid rolls without tanks or scaling.
     
  10. Crazy

    Crazy Member

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    If you take a look at the ladder you can see the players climbing the fastest to Top 10 are players spamming mech. They lose their elo while playing Mastermind then, simply because they do not play on the level of the players around them.

    To games ago the enemy team had one of those mech onetricks and a friend of mine in the enemy team. The Mech player (Rank 5 at that moment) did not win by playing advantages or making sick calls, if fact he won because his setup countered every wave from 13-16. Concering the calls: he wanted to send with 300 myth on 15 into my team (i had 2 Doomsdays + vets + canos and 3.5k value and my teammate had a Fenix and a Doomsday and some shit) which ultimatively led to their lower rated player (600 elo below the mech player) making the call to go 16. The mech player almost refused to listen to it. He basically was forced to join the 16 send or solosend after my friend told him that he would not send 15. Btw it tested all sends out they could have done 15, we would have at most taken 7 of our 63% King HP as damage.

    The point I am trying to make is that I would prefer to see either Legions (espcially Mech and maybe Grove) to be more balanced or to have a restriction to only play Mastermind in ranked if you are in the Top 100 players.
     
  11. Roshkatul

    Roshkatul Member

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    ^What are you talking about? Mastermind is clearly better than legions.
    And a 1600 elo guy spamming the same build over and over again, won't ever get him to 2.1k elo because legions are bad compared to mastermind.
    Edit, played vs the same guy you were talking about. 300 leak value wave 5 while playing mastermind. That was cool.

    Kappa.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2018
  12. FaithOfHeaven

    FaithOfHeaven Member

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    I got a note about Seraphin, maybe you should consider boosting it a little bit next patch:

    - Seraphin is really weak at the moment, I made some calculations:
    and his Hp/gold: 6,315789 and DPS/gold: 0,515789
    Compared with windhawk which is 10g cheaper: Hp/gold: 8,705882 DPS/gold 0,564706
    It's just a small comparision but I think it is too weak at the moment and I don't see many people play it. Maybe you can check your data for this how many (high elo) people play it.

    The only thing you can say, is that it's strong with leviathian lategame or w/e, but in early it's just too weak in my opinion.
     
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  13. deutscherhawk

    deutscherhawk Moderator

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    I agree, but I think windhawk is a poor comparison, they serve different roles and since windhawk is flying melee it tends to die much faster while seraphin stays alive a lot longer. Range is an important stat as well.

    That being said, lets look at a few other units.

    Tempest. 250 range and 5g less has 200 more HP and 7 less DPS, comes out to 8.88 hp/g and .45dps/g... but that also doesnt take into account tempests anti-air ability which conditionally adds a small amount of dps

    Butcher. 300 Range, 55g more has 7.1 hp/g. Now, only .38dps/g but 1)it gives a substantial aura boosting the effective HP of several units and 2)more expensive units always tend to be slightly less efficient.

    Aqua. 400 range, 45 less gold. Only has 400 HP but on a per gold basis that is higher than seraphin, and after you take the bounce into account it has a DPS/G of .7(!)

    Now again there are a lot of things to be considered. Seraphin does have the ability to become a HP focused tank when you need it, aquas bounced attacks are probably less efficient and easier countered than a single target dps, but the question really becomes: Does Seraphins ability make up for this disparity in stats, and I think the overwhelming answer is no. I think you could buff Seraphins damage by 2 (would bring the total DPS to 50.35 and dps/g to .53) and it starts to become a lot more viable
     
  14. FaithOfHeaven

    FaithOfHeaven Member

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    You are now comparing apples with pears (u can't compare butcher with seraphin in my opinion).
    Here below I compared some other units around the same gold.

    Seraphin 95g: Hp/gold: 6,315789 DPS/gold: 0,515789
    Devilfish 95g: HP/gold: 12,10526 DPS/gold: 0,389474

    Veteran 115g: HP/gold: 12,08696 DPS/gold: 0,382609

    Sea serpent 90g: Hp/gold: 9,666667 DPS/gold: 0,555556
    Tempest 90g: HP/gold: 8,888889 DPS/gold: 0,455556 (+ the extra air dmg ofcourse)
    Atom 90g: HP/gold: 10,44444 DPS/gold: 0,422222 (+ the extra dmg per mana thing)

    And yeah I agree that every unit has his own strenght on certain levels. And I agree that it has to be buffed^^
     
  15. Nacccho

    Nacccho Member

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    Today i had the most bizarre games of all sending into a mech.

    Made him leak marginally 4. Then because of small leaks and long waves, was able to send gk + lizzard *, which he leaked pretty much full not even killing the gk.
    He then went venture and still held a 500ish send 12. Held 600+ 16(BULLSHIT doomsdays arent good 16), and marginally leaked 19 where we won.

    At the end he had double my workers, and close to my value. Even getting starved early on, leaking hard on 8, so on and so forth. And i had close to a flawless game.

    That is simply because, he can afford to income send every now and then, he doesnt need humungous sends to threat a player that isn't playing a race. While still being able to take risks, because mech holds so well undervalued.

    ~~
    The dynamic of sending into races, especially mech is ultra stiff. And waaay more punishing if you need to income some waves.
     
  16. foliesseer

    foliesseer Member

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    But Windhawk is melee, and also one of these melee units with a good gold/stat ratio. They also both serve very different goals, Windhawk being a T3 Melee Bruiser and Seraphin being a T1U Ranged Magic DPS. Comparing these two units isn't very fair at all.

    I have a Spreadsheet (Google Docs) for this which I started a while back, but I never got around to finish it, especially last week because I was busy with exams. Note that the spreadsheet isn't fully updated for v2.30 (The T2(U) units stats are outdated), and that only the flat stats and no abilities are taken into consideration.

    Here you notice that Seraphin has an extremely good Attack/Gold ratio of 124,4%, only beaten by Consorts 135%. It's HP is terrible though, being at 70,5% and averaging the total effectiveness at 97,5%. But you could also say "Does that HP matter? You get value out of the fact that Seraphin is ranged and that Seraphin has high damage, right? It's HP stat doesn't really matter if it kills the enemies!" Well, think about what you generally use T1's for. Comparing Pollywog to every single other T1, you notice that Pollywog can't be used efficiently in a split and it can't be used to off-tank 1 or 2 creeps. This is actually a pretty big deal! And Seraphin struggles with the same issues: it can't (off-)tank at all. And you can never have it transform into a Seraphin in the split, since it's really squishy.

    When I was talking about this on the Discord a while back, I came to my own conclusion. And that conclusion is that it's basically that Seraphin is just bad because it's a ranged T1U that has a T1 with a few big flaws. You will probably only use the Devilfish upgrade, except if it's a Pierce wave. As you might have seen in your own calculations (and maybe in my spreadsheet), Devilfish has a really good Stat/Gold efficiency and still serves the function of an off-tank. You'd only go for Seraphin on Pierce waves where Devilfish will be a lot less efficient in tanking. But of course, that's my own opinion on this topic :p.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2018
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  17. Nacccho

    Nacccho Member

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    Mech is in every single game.
    It's unplayable at this state. It made me sincerely lose my FUCKING mind today.
    That and playing with full incomers who play alone and dont give a f*ck, and then i'm the one penalyzed for losing my shit.
     
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  18. foliesseer

    foliesseer Member

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    Yup, I also saw multiple Mech players, even after the nerfs. The problem I have with this is that Legions are unbreakable pre-10 since they use predefined builds to hold every send they can imagine and the only thing you can do is wish that your ally decides to do some heavy saves onto the Mech player, otherwise they are unbeatable after 10. Of course, boosted Peewees are still a big issue here.

    Personally I can deal with the Mech players but I can totally understand the frustration. I'm curios what the winrates actually are for Mech and what Jules has to say about this.
     
  19. GvR Mr Mister

    GvR Mr Mister Member

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    Overall: 50,16%
    1400+: 49,79%
    1600+: 51,85%
    1800+: 45,45%
    2000+: 62,5%
     
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  20. foliesseer

    foliesseer Member

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    Thanks for the quick response :D. Can you also deliver the sample sizes per elo range? And with 1400+, I assume you mean the 1400-2200 range and not the 1400-1599 range?