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v2.36: Looter, Pack Rat, Mac Fix, Stability Improvements

Discussion in 'Patch Notes' started by Jules, Sep 13, 2018.

  1. SiegeMentality

    SiegeMentality Member

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    Ok. I know the math on this one. It's called the bridal party. Usually, your flower girls and bridesmaids walk behind the bride and straighten out her train for pretty pictures like this. It's not unusual to have flower girls actually carry the train at times.

    As far as egg / hydra goes: You nerfed something with a high win rate but was used 22% of the time. This does not compute. Sure, it's strong, but so many players pass on it because it requires such an investment.
     
  2. Dimlhugion

    Dimlhugion Member

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  3. Lisk

    Lisk Director Staff Member

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    Just hotfixed a nasty bug where Head Chef heal sometimes didn't wear off. It's live as of about 5 minutes ago - posting here in case anyone had it earlier and was wondering when it's fixed.
     
  4. SiegeMentality

    SiegeMentality Member

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    I read it already. I didn't agree with it then, and I still don't agree with it now. The bottom line is that egg had an effect on the meta. Ok. New units tend to do that. The data shows that everyone rushed to try it out, got their eggs crushed a few times and then started passing on egg. I'll say 80% of the time that I go egg, my teammate tells me how much they hate egg.

    So now, a unit that most people won't gamble on is nerfed hard. I know, because I went into a wave that I usually lol at with my hydra out and... I leaked.

    PS - If we're going to talk about meta breaking nonsense, let's go with one person not building.
     
  5. Seraphon

    Seraphon Member

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    Well at the moment people don't want to gamble on egg because of 5w starters. Example, Bone crusher + gargoyle is a must have to be sure to have the possibility to destroy an opponent egg. Same for whileshroom.
    Else, if you were not able to send 80 mythium, it was almost impossible to break an egg. For sure egg was op in the previous patch. Now we have to see if it is still possible to go egg.
     
  6. Dimlhugion

    Dimlhugion Member

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    You should also read Jules' post earlier in this thread:

    The 22% figure is only for one of the 4 mentioned brackets, specifically the 1600+ one. I would wager the pick rate declines at higher brackets and increases at lower ones, not because it's a bad gamble necessarily, but because at lower rankings the average player both A.) isn't likely to understand the meta as well, and B.) isn't as likely to run into an opponent who understands the meta. If you didn't know how to counter the egg opener, the early game was pretty much on lockdown until at LEAST wave 8, and even then, only if you starved yourself for several of the most crucial rounds in the game. Income snowballs, as I'm sure you're aware; send a snail on wave 4 and you have 6(N-4) gained income, where N equals the number of rounds the game lasts. Another way of looking at it though is if you're forced to save 20 myth from 4 to 7 to bomb on 8. Each increment of 20 myth (obviously you'd save more than that, just using this one snail as an example) cost you 6N income, where N equals the number of waves you didn't send it. So we're looking at a total income LOSS of 6*4+6*3+6*2+6 = 60, just by not sending 20 myth per round for 4 rounds.

    Losing 15 gold per round hurts a LOT more in the early game than it does in the mid-to-late game. But you can't just send for income, because that will feed the egg starter, allowing them to pump out a million workers. So it becomes a Sophie's Choice, where the "lesser of two evils" is starving yourself for 4 rounds in the hopes of recouping some of it on a leak. Regardless of whether that choice is being made a lot of the time or only some of the time, it's not a fun choice. It's an unfun situation to be put into, and on top of that, even if you do everything right, you STILL only had a 47% chance of winning (at the 1600+ bracket at least).

    So to sum it all up, egg directly caused an unfun situation that lead to a loss more than half of the time even if the opposing player did nothing wrong. And that's to say nothing about INDIRECT effects, such as being afraid to do a sub-5 worker start on the OFF-chance your opponent goes egg, or not being able to properly punish a 2-worker, snail-on-1 start "because what if they're going egg."

    I don't think it's a bad unit conceptually. Same way how I don't think Banana Bunk is a bad unit conceptually. But when you can plunk them down very safely from turn 2 and just ignore the nuances of a nontrivial portion of the game, that's unhealthy. The fact that such a choice exists, whether it's a popular one or not, has butterfly-effect implications on the meta. The fact that it sported a high win rate when picked is just piling on the damnation.

    With regards "no-build" strats, that at least is mitigated by the game mechanics and how leaks award extra gold for the opposing team and diminished returns for the catcher + leaker. Egg was like an otherworldly meteor that just started warping shit with its gravitas.
     
  7. SiegeMentality

    SiegeMentality Member

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    Everyone keeps saying that the free gold you get from the no build strat makes it fair. I´m wondering how many times they´re playing against no build and then their team mate gets NINE HUNDRED send on wave 11.
     
  8. thaeltras

    thaeltras Member

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    i found an interesting bug where my mate build at the lowest point of the building space and so my wave i leaked would go to him cross inc ;)?
     
  9. Nacccho

    Nacccho Member

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    I argued that in the patch notes about 2 days after hydra was released and nobody gave a damn ;p. It was so clearly game breaking, but people defended it by saying "oh you just need to push a lot early", or "person sending to it has to go 5 workers to send 80".
    Like yea, the counter to hydra is prehemptively picking against it as a team, no matter the team positions, also willing strong pushing units early to existence in your rolls.... Kappa

    A strat that has two very straight foward inherent weaknesses, you lose gold while giving to your opponent, also excerts little to no pressure to one of the players. It's pretty bad.
     
  10. Roshkatul

    Roshkatul Member

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    I don't think anyone in their right mind would ever consider something which can be defeated by income sending, "meta breaking"
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2018
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  11. Seraphon

    Seraphon Member

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    Thanks in advance for an hotfix this Bone crusher...This bone is just destroying the meta at the moment.
    #NerfTheBone
     
  12. Akitos

    Akitos Member

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  13. SirCloud

    SirCloud Member

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    You gotta stop overusing the word "fucking" and maybe you should reconsider acting like a douche in your videos. Your points are valid though, very good critisicm.
     
  14. Seraphon

    Seraphon Member

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    Well, Akitos said a lot the word "Fucking". This is true. However, I agree with him to say this patch is a real joke...Bone starter is now completely stupid and so much strong. Zeus is still not nerfed enough. Eggs mechanics is not modified....New mercenaries are not introduced. We cannot say it is a good patch and for sure we are disapointed about this patch.
     
  15. SirCloud

    SirCloud Member

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    There are other ways to express dissapointment, though. I think the devs are actually really nice and try their hardest to make the game good. They even responded to the Pack rat recommendations immediately and changed things up. It's not like they're not open for change.
     
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  16. Seraphon

    Seraphon Member

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    I didn't say it was a good way to express disapointment ^^ I just say that I can understand ;)
     
  17. nimea

    nimea Member

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    How do you want the egg to be changed? It is a nightmare to balance... Its start is fine since you have to stay on 2 worker and its not that hard to break on 3. The problems are that you are forced to have a 5w start and its midgame/lategame power
     
  18. Seraphon

    Seraphon Member

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    Well, I think eggs are not more or less balanced even if it is still strong. However, for sure bone and zeus are still too strong.
     
  19. Dimlhugion

    Dimlhugion Member

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    The more general issue is that T6 units are not balanced around being "starter" units. If you were "supposed" to place them down on Turn 1 or 2, they would have costs reflecting that, and then power adjustments based on that cost. Or alternatively we would start with more gold to be able to afford them easier.

    But that isn't the case. T6 units are not balanced around first-few-round placements.

    This issue was always present, just not exacerbated until the advent of Atlantean. Going for a low-worker start with a low-cost high-efficiency tower like honey or crusher and then selling the tower to plunk down a millenium or banana bunk was always a strategy, but it was never the strategy until Grarl made it super-safe and super-cost-efficient to do so. Then egg came along, which was a T6 that actively REWARDED this strategy. It just spiralled out of control from there.

    Hearthstone had a similar problem with Druids. They had class cards that allowed them to "cheat" the mana curve, pumping out minions "ahead of schedule" to the point where opponents simply could not catch up. A 4/5 for 4 is only very slightly overtuned - it only passes vanilla test by .5 - but when you drop it turn ONE it becomes a very, very big deal.

    Tower Defense games have similar challenges to face. How do you make lower tier towers "valuable" throughout the majority of the game, but without making it viable to simply spam T1's ad nauseum? And on the other side of the spectrum, how do you make dropping tons of cash on one single unit worthwhile without making that unit stupidly broken in earlier phases of the game? It's a real big problem to try and tackle, especially when the playerbase will look for any and all ways to cheat the system. And who can blame them? That's where the FUN of the game lies, for many people at least. "How can I develop a strategy that breaks the game wide open?"

    There aren't many solutions I can come up with, aside from the one Blizzard employed, which was to simply nerf the Druid class cards until their "cheatiness" wasn't as explosive. It made a lot of people upset when they did that! But that might be what needs to happen. Grarl as a concept might need to be revisited, egg might need to be tuned down, and moving forward, we might need to be more vigilant about the "cheating the curve" problem of dropping overtuned units down extra early.

    "If we don't deal with this now, soon... little Gambol here won't be able to get a nickel for his grandma." ~ The Joker

    Sometimes you have to fix the real problem, regardless of how distasteful it might seem at the time.
     
  20. Akitos

    Akitos Member

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    I can only act as myself, sorry sir. If you don't like it that's fine, obviously it's impossible that everyone likes who you are, but I won't change the way I am. I am emotional and I say what I think. That's me. About the overuse of "fucking", well, bad habit when I speak english and get upset.
     
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