1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

v2.38: Maccabeus Rework, Pathing/Targeting

Discussion in 'Patch Notes' started by Jules, Sep 28, 2018.

  1. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,487
    Likes Received:
    1,663
    Trophy Points:
    113
    2018_1001_patchnote.jpg

    v2.38 Patch Notes
    Released!

    Next Nomad unit tier coming in v2.39. For this patch, we're focusing on extensive gameplay improvements and reduction of RNG in the game.

    NEW! Language Options

    - Latvian and Polish!
    - Thank you to everyone who contributed (translator badges will be given out this patch)
    - Some languages are not fully up-to-date. We are close to finalizing our improved workflow for updating languages. Stay tuned for an announcement

    Game Improvements

    Crash Fixes
    - Fixed a crash caused by the Coherent UI plugin (caused by an overflow of the maximum size of a memory allocator)

    Lobby Idle
    - You are no longer auto-booted for idling for 30 minutes in the lobby. Feel free to leave Legion TD 2 minimized when you’re not playing, which actually helps to increase the sociability and network effects of the game.

    Country Leaderboard
    - Fixed country/territory names for players from Monaco, Guernsey, Morocco, Costa Rica, Brunei, Kazakhstan, Palestine, Macedonia, Bangladesh, the Faroe Islands, Myanmar, Zambia, Liechtenstein, Lebanon, Ecuador, Albania, Armenia, India, Pakistan, Borneo, Iraq, New Caledonia, Venezuela, French Guiana, Azerbaijan, and Uzbekistan

    Legion TD 2 has players from 100 countries/territories!

    Gameplay Improvements

    The goal of these changes is to reduce RNG and make the game feel better

    Pathing
    - Improved pathing for all melee ground units - less likely to dance around (enabled SmoothPathing)
    - All units should move a bit more fluidly (Lowered separation hard collision size multiplier from 0.5 to 0.25)

    Targeting Order
    - Improved reliability of targeting order for melee units (now correctly prioritizes based on when it was attacked - this is most noticeable when building Berserkers/Nightmares vs. Granddaddy)

    Example: If your Antler first attacked (engaged) the Granddaddy before the Berserker, the Granddaddy should always target the Antler before the Berserker.



    Mercenary Spawning
    - Mercenaries now spawn more deterministically
    -- Spawn position is no longer affected by the order in which you hire mercenaries
    -- Mercenary pathing is now less affected by the number of mercenaries hired
    - You may notice some differences in terms of how certain builds perform against particular wave + mercenary combinations, but overall, this change results in less RNG and is better for the game in the long run

    Screenshot - 9_27_2018 , 2_10_53 PM.png

    King
    - Made turn radius faster (he is now younger with better knees)

    Mastermind
    - You will no longer get a roll with Eggsack as your only Natural/Fortified tank (it’s too situational to be used reliably as a primary tank)

    Game Balance

    We're being intentionally conservative with balance because we've only had 4.5 days since the last patch. That's hardly enough time to make big balance changes. We were tempted to include no balance changes this patch but figured a few tweaks was better than nothing.

    Tier 1

    DarkMage.png
    Dark Mage red_arrow.png
    - Attack speed: 0.94 -> 0.9

    BoneCrusher.png
    Bone Crusher red_arrow.png
    - Health: 1030 -> 1010

    Usage rate: 33%
    Win rate: 51.1%


    Proton.png
    Proton green_arrow.png
    - Attack speed: 1.265 -> 1.28

    Atom.png
    Atom green_arrow.png
    - Attack speed: 1.265 -> 1.28

    Usage rate: 11%
    Win rate: 49.5%


    Buzz.png
    Buzz green_arrow.png
    - Attack speed: 1.12 -> 1.16

    Consort.png
    Consort green_arrow.png
    - Attack speed: 1.09 -> 1.12

    Usage rate: 9%
    Win rate: 48.9%


    Tier 2

    Angler.png
    Angler red_arrow.png
    - Health: 420 -> 410
    - Attack speed: 0.91 -> 0.88

    Usage rate: 20%
    Win rate: 51.4%


    Ranger.png
    Ranger green_arrow.png red_arrow.png
    - Damage: 29 -> 31
    - Mark Target: Damage amplification: 1 -> 1 (0.5 to bosses)

    Daphne.png
    Daphne green_arrow.png red_arrow.png
    - Damage:105 -> 110
    - Nature's Touch: Damage reduction -> 10 (5 to bosses)

    Usage rate: 16%
    Win rate: 49.7%

    With the fixed targeting order and redesigned Maccabeus, there are now more options against waves 10 and 20, so Ranger and Daphne don't need to be specifically anti-boss units


    Pyro.png
    Pyro red_arrow.png
    - Health: 1650 -> 1600

    Pyro is a weak unit, but we have to nerf it further because Mech is too strong. This is a temporary solution. We're working on a "fix" to Mech that allows us to buff Pyro and Tempest without making Mech OP.

    Usage rate: 18%
    Win rate: 48.7%


    Tier 3

    Wileshroom.png
    Wileshroom green_arrow.png
    - No longer get targeted first due to starting at 50% life

    Canopie.png
    Canopie green_arrow.png
    - No longer get targeted first due to starting at 50% life

    Tier 4

    Deathcap.png
    Deathcap green_arrow.png
    - Health: 3350 -> 3400

    Usage rate: 10%
    Win rate: 47.4%

    Tier 5

    PriestessoftheAbyss.png
    Priestess of the Abyss green_arrow.png
    - Damage: 36 -> 37

    Usage rate: 14.5%
    Win rate: 49.3%


    Tier 6

    LordOfDeath.png
    Lord of Death green_arrow.png
    - Now counts as a flying unit (for the purposes of Leviathan’s Aerial Command)

    It’s technically complex to make Leviathan affect Undead Dragons but not Lord of Death. We plan to implement this in a future patch, but in the meantime, Aerial Command can only affect both or neither. It now affects both.

    Millennium.png

    Millennium green_arrow.png red_arrow.png
    - Damage: 310 -> 335
    - Explosive Shells: 80 -> 50

    DoomsdayMachine.png
    Doomsday Machine green_arrow.png red_arrow.png
    - Damage: 740 -> 800
    - Detonation: 160 -> 100

    These units were never intended to be area-of-effect units; the splash was intended to be more of a flavor ability and compensation for overkilling

    Usage rate: 20%
    Win rate: 51.9%


    Waves

    Maccabeus.png
    (20) Maccabeus green_arrow.png red_arrow.png
    - DPS: 2187.5 -> 1750
    -- Damage: 700 -> 175
    -- Attack speed: 3.125 -> 10
    - Now affected by the targeting order improvements (detailed above)
    - Faster projectile speed
    - Significantly faster turn radius
    - Immolate (splash damage): Removed
    - New ability: Insatiable Hunger: Upon getting a kill, its damage increases by 0.5%

    - Less abusive against melee units and masses of flying units (Canopies should actually be decent on 20 now)
    - Can now be more easily manipulated to attack certain units (Fatalizer, Doppelganger, etc.) after other melee units
    - Significantly more consistent in terms of how your build performs (we tested this change extensively)


    LegionLord.png
    (21) Legion Lords green_arrow.png red_arrow.png
    - Legion King: Inferno: 5% (3% to flying) splash damage -> 5%
    - Legion King: Now affects a maximum of 5 targets
    - New ability: Insatiable Hunger: Upon getting a kill, its damage increases by 0.5%

    Less abusive against melee units and masses of flying units
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2018
  2. Roshkatul

    Roshkatul Member

    Messages:
    247
    Likes Received:
    347
    Trophy Points:
    63
    But.. why? This is so wrong on so many levels..

    I also find it funny that you guys don't wanna introduce the new units at once to give players time to adapt (and I see no new unit this patch btw), yet you have no problem changing a few mechanics which can completely change the meta AT ONCE, in the same patch
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2018
  3. Ya Dingus

    Ya Dingus Member

    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    3
    some rly interesting changes. crazy changes to 20! i wonder if it will be stronger or weaker. hopefully just not so good or bad against specific units anymore
     
  4. Nacccho

    Nacccho Member

    Messages:
    327
    Likes Received:
    141
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Wow, this is awful. Where is this comming from?

    A unit that is 52% win rate by the way you look at the data is WAY too strong. Consider it being a unit that is also very situational, so that the average player pulls the numbers down, it is even more so.

    You're nerfing the less relevant phase of the creature, in the most irrelevant way possible.

    Are you guys buffing it to make it more appealing in comparison to BW/pollys?
    Because it really doesnt need it,

    ~~
    Really liked the change to canopie, which was kinda rendered completely useless late game because of it. Looking forward to playing it again.
    ~~
    Feel conflicted about pathing changes, i think it should be a step in the right direction, but i also don't want to feel like it is too simple, therefore somewhat easy idk.

    Wait, isnt this going to be ultra easy with spam now? Cent will become mandatory 20 i guess.
     
    Seraphon likes this.
  5. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,487
    Likes Received:
    1,663
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Thanks for sharing your thoughts. The partial bounty change was made because it reduces RNG and is a good change for the game in the long run. You're welcome to have a different opinion, but this was our reasoning:



    There are roughly 3 situations that can occur:
    • Your units focus the Brute first, and you end up leaking a few Hoppers (14% leak)
    • Your units focus the Brute last, and you end up just leaking the Brute (14% leak)
    • Your units focus the Brute halfway through, and you end up leaking multiple Hoppers and the Brute (52% leak)
    Because this is effectively random, we're decreasing the effects of that RNG by giving you partial bounty for the Brute. This means you would have experienced a 41% leak here instead of a 52% leak with partial bounty.

    You're right, that wasn't the only reason. I'm sorry. It was one reason (we do want to space out the delivery of new content), but it wasn't the only reason. Another reason is that it's an incredible amount of work to implement a unit into the game (in addition to making the actual concept, model, and animations). We have to create a unit icon, ability icon, VFX, and SFX, program the ability logic, sync up the unit's bones, texture, scale, and many other things. The next Nomad tier (2 units) have been ready to go in terms of art assets for a while, but they were not ready in terms of implementation. We could have done it this patch, but we decided other changes were better for the game, including:
    • Fixing a bug that was crashing people's game
    • Nerfing Mech before it got out of control again
    • Reducing frustrating RNG in the game
    You may not agree, but that was our thought process.
    Here are my thoughts:
    • We're being intentionally conservative with balance because we've only had 4.5 days since the last patch. That's hardly enough time to make big balance changes. We were tempted to include no balance changes this patch but figured a few tweaks was better than nothing.
    • The data is not being pulled down by average players. We specifically look at high-rated data.
    • The 52% is likely influenced by low sample size. 4.5 days of high-rated data is not enough to have an accurate estimation.
    • In my opinion, this is the great place to nerf the unit. Angler is the highest win rate and the 1st or 2nd most popular start among high-rated players. Maybe we should have nerfed Angler more than we did, but again, we were being conservative given the short amount of time that has elapsed since the last patch.
    Then why do high-rated players take Pollywogs 2x as often as Proton and Bone Warrior 3x as often? I don't think every roll has to be perfectly equal, but those are pretty large discrepancies that suggest Proton is not very appealing compared to other T1s.

    The faster attack speed, faster turn rate, and introduction of Level Up all help Maccabeus against spam. Maybe it's not enough, but that's the logic.
     
    Seraphon, nimea and Nacccho like this.
  6. Nacccho

    Nacccho Member

    Messages:
    327
    Likes Received:
    141
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Pollywog, on top of other things, is just an improved atom. And there is no amount of buffing atom stats that will fix that without breaking the unit.
    Because they serve the exactly same purpose late game, which is a ranged cannon fodder, which adds the most value stalling the wave and centaur... Pollywog is better at that simply because its cheaper.

    Protons add more value late game than bws by themselves. Difference is both bws and pollys are also core starting builds, while proton isn't. The stat compensation necessary to put them on even footing can lead to imbalances later and buffing element even more is also scary.

    Why not make pollys range shorter like @Roshkatul suggested, leaving atom as it is?

    Understood, we'll have to wait and see, but without aoe will be hard to clear spam fast enough and also keep up with the summons...
     
  7. Bluejin

    Bluejin Member

    Messages:
    90
    Likes Received:
    58
    Trophy Points:
    18
    As long as it doesn't become abusive with AoE units like Flower/Pyro I don't understand why everyone seems to have a problem with that change.

    If that is enough to stop the 5-worker angler start, it's significant enough probably.
     
    Seraphon and Jules like this.
  8. nimea

    nimea Member

    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    3
    Thank you for being honest! I really appreciate it <3
     
    Seraphon and Jules like this.
  9. Pepperpiet

    Pepperpiet Member

    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    3
    well i dont offen write my opinion to patches but i dont like the patch
    the bounty change will buff pyro, flower and bunk openings in my eyes. btw with a good turret positioning u can avoid this moments u show in the video so this change was not necessary.

    tempest change is bad too. now mech have 3 swift units and two arcane and just one fortified if u want to change it make it natural, but this is bullshit (sry:p).

    why u dont take more time for this patch? in my opinion noone is dissapointed if the patchcircle is 2 weeks or a bit less

    and again no hydra nerf
     
  10. Roshkatul

    Roshkatul Member

    Messages:
    247
    Likes Received:
    347
    Trophy Points:
    63
    This is probably my last patch review in a long period of time, since the meta will turn into an unbalanced shit show.

    First of all, I wanna address your statement that you want to be conservative about your patches, so you don't change the meta too much from one patch to another.. Yet, besides the fact that you basically lied to us in 2.36:
    , since the units were obviously not completely finished, you are also introducing aspects which completely change the game, and SEVERAL OF THEM AT ONCE. Now to the actual patch review:

    Meta Changer No. 1
    - This change can change the whole meta on it's own, if it influences wave splits and aggro, but it's a "necessary evil", since this needed to get fixed, so I agree with it.

    Huge Meta Changer No. 2
    - Similar to the last change, this can change the whole meta, but once again, this was needed, so I agree with it, but it can have a HUGE influence on the meta

    Meta Breaker No. 3
    - Now this is just unnecessary and has a HUGE and IMO negative IMPACT on the meta.

    THE WHOLE GAME is balanced around bounty working as it is working right now, you would literally have to adjust over 10 units/mercenaries to make this work, while the change in itself is a dumb one.

    - Now, let me tell you how dumb this is: You lose more gold if you leak 4 full HP hoppers on wave 3, than if you leaked the whole wave with 5 hp because of a honeyflower start. Sounds balanced, right?

    - AoE units are hard to use, and they are meant to be used that way. If you get too much AoE damage, without getting enough single target damage, you SHOULD be punished for it.
    Examples:
    Fighters
    *Leaking 4-5 flying chickens with 1% hp on 4 with pyro start because you pushed too much. On this patch, you lose a significant amount of gold, on the next patch you'll lose like 5-10 gold
    *Leaking full wave 3 because you screwed up and went 6w with a honeyflower. No problem, your screw up isn't that punished, because you barely lose any gold because you damaged the wave
    *FIRE ELEMENTAL's early counter is making it leak with a dino early on. From 40-45% leaks caused by a dino on 4/5, you might only cause a 15% leak because everything is damaged, even though fire elemental as a unit should be countered by dino, since it has almost no single target damage.
    *Leaking full wave 9 with a deathcap with no single target, is once again left unpunished. Deathcap could leak like 7-8 wave 9 units to an adequate send like mole + hermit. Now leaking 7-8 units with 10% hp is far less relevant.
    *Every single target build is far more punished right now, since leaking an unit with full HP losses more gold than before (if I'm not mistaken)

    Waves
    *Wave 6 was a strong wave, because leaking 1 rocko with 5% hp meant a 17% leak, which was really nice, denying heavy greeds on this wave and keeping some weak builds such as aqua spam in check. Well, now not so much

    Mercenaries
    *Mimic is trash. Yes, you heard me, mimic is really weak AFTER this change. Some people liked to send mimic early on on waves such as 7, against builds which wouldn't usually leak there. Those builds held really good, but because they leaked the mimic, it was already a 25% leak, which made sending a mimic WORTH IT compared to other mercenaries. Now if mimic gets damaged, mimic is a trash send.
    *Lizards against bunk. Sending lizards against bunk is bad, but in some cases like sending against aqua combo + bunk on wave 10, it was worth it, since the lizards barely survived the reflect damage and then they would go ahead and kill the swift/arcane armored units. After this change, lizards will be complete trash in situations where they were fairly decent or an actual good send
    *Any tank against deepcoiler builds or other builds, which might survive until the end, but can get damaged

    These are just a few examples I've come up within a few minutes.

    *While making the game less frustrating for the leaker, it also makes the game waaay more frustrating for the sender, similar to how the gate change made some people question the change (but in this case, the change will affect every game, not just 1 in 100 matches where the old gate would have won someone the game+this wasn't a needed change like the mythium gate change).
    *IMO it also makes the game less fun, less punishing, and less skill demanding when playing some builds (like AoE or bounce damage builds)
    *It could have been a good change to introduce it steadily (for wave 5/15 mini boss and for wave 20), and maybe try it for the mercenaries (but it shouldn't ever make it into the game for the wave bounty, it's just dumb and unhealthy and will ruin the game for a month or two, depending on how long jules will take to rebalance like 50% of the game, which isn't healthy for the game either.)

    *How are you going to "readjust" AoE units? By balancing them around always damaging the wave? By balancing them around almost leaking the wave? It is unrealistic.

    This is just a stubborn change. Bone crushers and other bone upgrades will never be balanced with this approach. They will either be trash tier or god tier, depending on positioning and on the player which uses it. NERF. THE. REGENERATION.

    Winrate's at 50%, atom start is strong.. ok..

    Just find it funny that we went back to the last iteration of rangers.. Necessary change though

    I was actually glad that you changed something like a defense type. But seriously, have you thought this trough for more than.. 2 minutes?

    Tempest now makes mech start UNLEAKABLE 1-6 and a tiny bit stronger 7/8.
    *Mech had a low chance of leaking on wave 4, but guess what. Tempest is swift, so now it's a god tier tank on 4. (I guess mech start leaks on 4 wouldn't have mattered anymore anyway, since it usually leaks the wave with 1% hp, so after the bounty change, it wouldn't have done anything)
    *Mech was also ok-ish on 6. Now tempest/leviathan are god tier tanks on 6, maybe even allowing mech to skip berserker on 6 all together
    *Swift is slightly stronger than fortified against magic, so that's 7/8/14/15 + 18
    *Wave 9 is really strong for mech because of millenium/pyro, so leviathan being weaker here doesn't do much
    *Wave 10. Mech can now skip going for fatalizer or x2 berserkers completely, as leviathan turned from a shit tank to a god tier tank on 10.
    *Wave 11. Mech has pyro/aps/mps. Yes, this wave is slightly weaker now, but not enough, since you probably won't have that much value invested into berserkers/fatalizers anymore.
    *Wave 12. Yes, leviathan got much weaker here. But mech is strong on this wave anyway, with MPS/pyros/boosted vets. Mech can only leak on 12 if you get like a 600 mythium send, or if mech already has a fatalizers (which guess what, it won't happen anymore)
    *Wave 13/14/15. Small buff (actually a significant buff on 13)
    *Wave 16. Ah, one of mech's weakest waves, which was very holdable though. Thank god that mech now has A PERFECT UNIT FOR 16
    *Wave 17. Tempest was really strong here, but do you really need tempest when you have doomsdays and mps? Nope.
    *Wave 18. Leviathan slightly stronger here, but not that relevant
    *Wave 19. Arguably the only wave where mech got weaker because of this change, which is waaay too late, considering that mech just got buffed on like 4-5 other questionable waves.


    Won't comment on this since I have no way of knowing how this works out without testing it in-game, which I assume you did


    Overall.. A potentially strong patch, turned into a terrible patch.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2018
  11. Pepperpiet

    Pepperpiet Member

    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    3
    edit from me the bounty change will reform the suicide strategy and will make it the new meta in my eyes cause if the counter "gold advantage" is now nearly deleted. the incomer just need an aoe mm roll and u win the game
     
  12. Mick

    Mick Member

    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    78
    Trophy Points:
    28
    I agree that all those changes are probably too much for a new patch. Also consider balancing again if something seems broken. It will be very hard to determine whether it was the pathing, the new bounty-system, spawning or balancing that caused it.

    I'm also a bit disappointed by the way things are going with the new units. I understand it is much more work than you anticipated, and you want to do more than you actually can, but by making false claims like "we want you to adapt to it" you just feed skepticism and are creating an atmosphere where people get more cynical. It's good you are honest about it now though!
     
    jitsuc4 and Roshkatul like this.
  13. ithion

    ithion Member

    Messages:
    573
    Likes Received:
    353
    Trophy Points:
    63
    That bounty thing is so boring I just had to comment on it.

    Seeing a boss leak with 1hp was the best shit
    A streamers best quality highlight moment sort of thing.
    You killed that fun a long time ago.

    Now you do it to the waves to. if you kill 10% of the wave you got 10% of the bounty. Now u can get more for "valid effort in injuring the enemy".

    The excitement when you kill a big merc with the last hit because you knew it truly meant something. So much fun. But LTD2 is not a game where players are suppossed to have fun.

    And you motivate it all with a video showing the most fun case possible for the attacker "LOOK AT THIS EPIC FUN! WE CAN'T TOLERATE THIS"

    Any specific event can't be fun for both attacking/defending player at the same time so I'd say it's more exciting to have cases where one player goes "FFFUUUCK" and the other goes "YEEEES" than both going "meh". Most true while watching it on stream. 100 viewers saying "meh" at the same time isn't them having fun.

    Stop the war on fun Jules before you start handing out partial elo losses/gains based on what hp the winning sides king is at!
     
    Diocletir, Marchombre and Roshkatul like this.
  14. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,487
    Likes Received:
    1,663
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Appreciate the feedback, everyone. One concern people have is that the partial bounty change will “throw things into chaos.” It will certainly affect balance/the meta, but I don’t think it’s going to be a huge effect. And it’s possible to get things stabilized by the following patch. Well-worth it for an overall positive change.

    I’ll also look into some preemptive nerfs for Pyro and Aqua, since they benefit from this patch (in addition to Honeyflower, which is weak). Keep in mind that Pyro is statistically a weak unit, outside of being the core opening for Mech, so it’s tricky.

    Also, if anyone has other ideas about how to address Mech, let us know. We thought about this a lot and believe the Tempest change is an overall nerf to Mech, but there may be better solution. We want to nerf Mech without making a unit less fun/hurting Mastermind.

    We’ll be continuing to test and iterate over the next couple days before the patch.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2018
    Seraphon likes this.
  15. jitsuc4

    jitsuc4 Moderator

    Messages:
    439
    Likes Received:
    243
    Trophy Points:
    43
    I just want to iterate on this once more, let's take w3 as an example:

    Old System
    Value: 5g - full clear gives 90g

    goldbountyleakhgpercent: 0.58 - 2.9g/2 = 1.45g each of the opponents get, when the leaked unit is killed (This can vary: 45% it's 2g, 55% it's 1g)
    goldbountyleakkillpercent: 0.15 - 0.75g the catcher gets (I think this gets rounded to 1 always)
    goldbountyleakleakerpercent: 0.52 - 2.6g the leaker gets, when the leaked unit is killed (I think this gets rounded to 3 always)

    I leak 100% of wave 3 at 50% hp, get no gold.
    My mate catches all of them.
    • I'll get 54g from the leaked units
    • Mate will get 18g
      • That's 72g to our team
    • Opponents will get 26.1g on average. (min. 18, max. 36), so ~13g each.

    New System
    I leak 100% of wave 3 at 50% hp.
    My mate catches all of them.
    • Assuming it's scaling linearly, that should be 40% I get from the leaks: 2g x 18 = 36g
    • I'll get another 54g when my mate catches them (No changes mentioned in patch notes @Jules)
    • Mate will still get 18g
      • That's 108g to our team
    • Opponents will get 26.1g on average. (min. 18, max. 36), so ~13g each.

    From Discord

    upload_2018-9-29_16-15-46.png

    upload_2018-9-29_16-16-5.png

    Since I didn't fully understand your statement on discord, I wanted to make my question clearer here, since I seem to be missing something. If the total gold is unchanged, can you clarify how that works out in my above example?
     
    Nacccho likes this.
  16. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,487
    Likes Received:
    1,663
    Trophy Points:
    113
    50% leak Hopper = 2 gold x 18 = 36 "clear" gold . These Hoppers are now worth 3 gold each (2 of their 5 bounty has been taken). This 3 gold will get distributed to the leaker, the killer, and the opposing team in the exact same ratios as right now. The total gold in the ecosystem remains mostly unchanged.

    That's the fundamental explanation. If you want more detailed math, see below:

    On wave 3, 52% of the remaining bounty goes to the leaker, 15% to the killer, and 58% to the opposing team. Yes, they sum to over 100% and these specific numbers are weird, but that's because they are scaling every wave. The exact numbers aren't so important. The important thing is that the game is fun/balanced, and it feels punishing but not overly punishing to leak.
    • 52% x 3 x 18 = 28.08 gold to the leaker
    • 15% x 3 x 18 = 8.1 gold to the killer
    • 58% x 3 x 18 = 31.32 gold to the opposing team
    36 + 28 + 8 + 31 = 103.5 gold

    Previously, it would have been:
    • 52% x 5 x 18 = 46.8 gold to the leaker
    • 15% x 5 x 18 = 13.5 gold to the killer
    • 58% x 5 x 18 = 52.2 gold to the opposing team
    46.8 + 13.5 + 52.2 = 112.5 gold

    This is a fairly extreme example because you're leaking 100% of the wave at half life. This can happen, but it's not par for the course.
     
    Seraphon and jitsuc4 like this.
  17. jitsuc4

    jitsuc4 Moderator

    Messages:
    439
    Likes Received:
    243
    Trophy Points:
    43
    I see, that's what's new. Before the remaining bounty was equal to creep bounty, so it didn't cross my mind to simply split it.
     
    Jules likes this.
  18. Nacccho

    Nacccho Member

    Messages:
    327
    Likes Received:
    141
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Thats the thing, is hard to see it as a positive change.
    Because it isn't something that anybody felt it was wrong with the game, i get that you wan't to diminish RNG, but this really feels like it isn't the way.
    Problems were mainly aggro discrepancies, mainly caused by mercenaries spawns.
    I felt like we were in a such good place in terms of bounty leaker/killer/opposing team(maybe this was a lil too high).

    Now saving is less rewarding than ever, early game getting easier with leaks being less punishing. Boy, it will be fun playing against grarl/bunk, pyro...
     
    Diocletir, Egekaer and Roshkatul like this.
  19. Diocletir

    Diocletir Member

    Messages:
    39
    Likes Received:
    16
    Trophy Points:
    8
    This statment is just wrong. While i agree with rosh and this just buffed Mechs early game i disagree with ur statement that they should make it natrual. That would be bullshit. Making the change from fortifiied to Natural would buff Mech from S-Tier to God-Tier (u dont want to play vs God-Tier without beeing on God-Tier urself). Because Natural would not make any weakness for mech but rather get rid of them.

    While this change might not the be the right one i like the way u @Jules try to balance Mech now. Giving Mech a wave where they are breakable (mid game as well as late game).

    Lastly for the bounty change. Though i agree with ithion that there will be less fun with this system i also understand that it might be less frustrating (i personally do not realy care about my elo anymore so i do not get frustrated through the game). I would give it a chance while hoping u might take this change back when the overall feedback after the change was tried out for ~ 1 week is still bad.
    Though this change will defnitly be a Meta breaker for the start so we will see a lot more Pyro/Flower/Bunk starts again.
    Looking at your example there will also be less gold in a game with leaks so there will be more starved or more Overpushed and Income sending Games. Though i hope the second Option i stated wont happen. I don't want to see an income sending meta again.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2018
    Jules likes this.
  20. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

    Messages:
    1,487
    Likes Received:
    1,663
    Trophy Points:
    113
    In response to feedback, I made the following changes:
    • Buffed Hermit to help keep area-of-effect units in check. Other than Pyro being a core opening for Mech, Honeyflower and Pyro are statistically weak units (low usage and win rate), especially Honeyflower. I'm hesitant to do too many preemptive changes, since it will be easy to do a follow-up tuning patch one or two days after the patch if needed.
    • Tuned leak % values so that (1) leaking stays equally as punishing on average, and (2) the total gold in the ecosystem remains constant.
    • Keep in mind that Granddaddy is now more punishing to leak, which helps keep area-of-effect units in check.
    Even if I don't respond, I read everything! I know everyone here wants what's best for the game, so thank you!