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v2.42: Mastermind Variety, Game Balance

Discussion in 'Patch Notes' started by Jules, Nov 28, 2018.

  1. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    2018_1128_patchnote.jpg

    v2.42a Patch Notes
    Deployed November 30th at 1:13 pm PST

    Fixed a loading screen bug

    v2.42 Patch Notes
    Expected Release: November 29
    Will be released to the public test realm in the morning PST
    Deployed November 29th at 1:10 pm PST


    Loading Screen
    - Fixed a rare case where the loading screen would get stuck (if the map file can’t be synced, it now falls back to locally cached map file)

    Gameplay Fixes
    - Fixed a rare case where your fighters would teleport twice to the catch area if a Froggo was spawned after you cleared

    Mastermind Lords Trophies
    - Imported Mastermind Lords trophies (designed by Seraphin and his friend). Trophies will be given out this patch

    Localization
    - Updated translations

    Game Balance

    Mastermind.png
    Mastermind
    - Extra weight given to some rolls to smooth out randomization and increase variety
    -- The Mastermind guarantees we added (must have a Tier 1, Tier 6, Arcane, etc.) were great for buffing Mastermind and reducing the chance of getting a weak roll, but they’re bad for variety. For example, did you know you roll Peewee 50% of the time but Ranger only 20% of the time?
    -- This change pulls everything closer to the average (30%). You'll still see Peewee more often than Ranger (because Peewee satisfies more Mastermind guarantees), but it won't be as extreme a discrepancy
    -- Will be rolled more: Ranger, Harpy, APS, Honeyflower, Disciple, Tempest, Priestess of the Abyss, Warg, Nightmare, Bazooka, Sea Serpent, Butcher, Windhawk, Berserker
    -- Will be rolled less: Peewee, Banana Bunk, Aqua Spirit, Gargoyle, Wileshroom

    We know this change will impact the meta, so we're not going overboard with balance changes this patch.

    Legion Spells

    GiantSnail.png
    Giant Snail green_arrow.png
    - Health: 650 -> 670
    - Damage: 28 -> 29

    For the Snail memes

    Tier 1

    Seraphin.png
    Seraphin green_arrow.png
    - Attack speed: 0.95 -> 0.97

    Devilfish.png
    Devilfish red_arrow.png
    - Attack speed: 0.95 -> 0.93

    BoneWarrior.png
    Bone Warrior red_arrow.png
    - Attack speed: 0.84 -> 0.82

    Looter.png
    Looter red_arrow.png
    - Attack speed: 0.81 -> 0.79

    Tier 2

    Bazooka.png
    Bazooka green_arrow.png
    - Health: 320 -> 350

    Harpy.png
    Harpy green_arrow.png
    - Damage: 20 -> 21

    Tier 3

    Gateguard.png
    Gateguard green_arrow.png
    - Chaos Hound: Attack speed: 1.18 -> 1.23

    Harbinger.png
    Harbinger green_arrow.png
    - Cerberus: Attack speed: 1.18 -> 1.23

    Honeyflower.png
    Honeyflower red_arrow.png
    - Health: 1170 -> 1150

    Tempest.png
    Tempest green_arrow.png red_arrow.png
    - Damage: 33 -> 32 (DPS: 36.7 -> 35.6)
    - Machine Gunner: Damage: 10 -> 12 (DPS: 20 -> 24)

    Keep in mind that Machine Gunner only hits ground units and has split focus.

    Lioness.png
    Lioness green_arrow.png
    - Attack speed: 0.83 -> 0.855

    AlphaMale.png
    Alpha Male green_arrow.png
    - Attack speed: 0.83 -> 0.855

    Tier 6

    Hydra.png
    Hydra green_arrow.png
    - Health: 2790 -> 2850
    - Hydraling: Health: 930 -> 950
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 30, 2018
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  2. Nacccho

    Nacccho Member

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    Great!
    I am all for variety! But, this happening before removing legions from the ladder its dangerous.

    I know this doesn't change much, but Hydra doesn't need it. Not one bit.
    It's true in most cases you need a lot of things on your roll to get it going, but when you do is down right abusive. You can also put your enemies on such awful positions midgame. Well, guess we'll see.

    ~~
    Protons are now officially the best tier 1 unit by a mile, at least when it comes to value.
     
  3. Seraphin

    Seraphin Member

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    - I would like to see some buff for warg to be honest but nevermind.
    - I feel Seraphin will be prob one of the most used unit for level 3-4 power.
    - Gateguard was not really interesting yeah. But Harbinger was bad ? I don't know to be honest.
    - I feel like Hydra will be abusive now if you got your egg wave 3. But I guess we should wait and see.
    - Really good things about snail!

    Just an advice, you should rework market I think. Definitively, it is not used at all because it does not have a real "personality". I mean, you cannot use it to aggro, but cannot really use it to defend. So you will use it just in case your really have nothing more interesting to take...
     
  4. Mick

    Mick Member

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    Nice, I love more randomization for MM. It's great to have more difference between rolls, so you can actually be happy about a good roll (or rage at a bad roll :D )

    I also don't really like the hydra-buff, my heart rate already drops to excitement point 0 if I see my enemy going for egg sack, so I guess that will happen more again when hydra is getting buffed.

    Great with Giant Snail buff, that is one of 2 mercenaries i rarely see. The other is mimic, maybe it could use some love too?

    And lastly, a bit unrelated to this patch, can you get the drop rates for cards a bit higher? I mean, I played this 800 games by now, and only got 5 cards (of which 1 is double). There are like 75+ cards total by now? I think if someone put in 400 hours in this game, they should at least be decently far with getting their collection, not having like nothing at all :)
     
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  5. Bonny

    Bonny Member

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    Overall Pretty good Patch!
    But if u change the Rolls like this, id recommand that fire Aqua is not concidered macig dmg. I had this Problem a gewesen Times now wehen my only magic fighter was aqua.

    U are right that market is a Bit weak atm, But there is no rework needed. Market is a spell to get a Bit from everything. Just give it like 2 more inc or +5 myth.
     
  6. Nacccho

    Nacccho Member

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    Oh, this i forgot to comment.
    Problems with dcap, not hf. I mean, hf is a t1 start, but you can hurt it early on.

    Problem is Dcap late, where it literally carries 16-17-18, and is also pretty good 19.

    So yea, 20 hp is irrelevant and isn't even addressing the issue.
     
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  7. Seraphin

    Seraphin Member

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    Statistically, it is not a weak spell. It just that you don't will use it generally. I mean, if you need mythium, you will take PTA or OW and anyways 10 or even 20 mythium won't change a lot of things usually. If you need to get more gold, there are so much more spells. And if you don't need gold/mythium, you will prefer to use aura spell.
     
  8. holepercent

    holepercent Member

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    Should make MasterMech weekly more interesting to write with better diversity in rolls. Looking good on the changes so far.
     
  9. MightyGorgon

    MightyGorgon Member

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    Can we just ditch the egg sack already and give the hydra an unupgraded form -_-“
     
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  10. Mick

    Mick Member

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    Please!
     
  11. FaithOfHeaven

    FaithOfHeaven Member

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    Still no nerf to doppelganger? As long as u can pick legions, this unit is way too strong with butcher forsaken
     
  12. Cornep

    Cornep Member

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    I LOVE the harbinger attack speed buffs.
     
  13. jitsuc4

    jitsuc4 Moderator

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    They're not in yet, though?
     
  14. Boris

    Boris Member

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    Nerf hermit's % regen, its too imba for a 80 myth unit or increase cost to 90 myth
     
  15. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    Will keep an eye on Hydra. If it remains problematic, we can do something to make Eggsack opening less binary. To me, it feels weak if it breaks early but too strong otherwise. Maybe it's too big a discrepancy.
    I'm hesitant to overclassify because that leads to lower variety. I agree Fire Elemental isn't the greatest source of mid-late game magic damage, but what about Bone Warrior (Fire Archer), Grarl (Ocean Templar), Gargoyle, Berserker, and Violet? I can see arguments that they aren't enough magic damage either. That leaves only Pollywog, Honeyflower, Bazooka (Zeus/Pyro), Lord of Death, and Fire Lord.

    Part of me wants to completely remove the guarantees and just give players more rerolls. What do you think?
    I'm eyeing Head Chef for a nerf next patch.
    I think Lisk forgot to upload the image files. Will talk with him when he's less busy with important bugs. Will make sure everyone gets their badges, don't worry.
    It does feel a bit strong, but I also like non-income mercenaries being strong, so that players don't just spam Dinos and Lizards every wave. Also, in the past, when I did a big send, I would often just add 2 Lizards with my remaining 80 mythium. Now I'm more likely to consider Hermit. I'm curious what others think!
     
  16. Nacccho

    Nacccho Member

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    Hermit is amazing, please dont touch it. Mercenaries are the best thing in the game at the moment.

    As long as you have a good push, you can leak even the most OP Builds.

    One of the reason dcap is so abusive late, is because auras becomes irrelevant when u mass them up, and they're better matched up against all mercenaries than any other unit.

    Partially agree. Some garantees are necessary, such as having t1, t6 and a tank...

    Hydra will absolutely be problematic. It was already super strong, and breaking on second wave wasn't that bad.
    The thing is, most of the games you don't have the capability of breaking it early, it's pure nrg if the sender gets a 5w start or not.
    Than on mid game you have the ability of putting people in awful spots, kinda controlling their sends, making it really awkward.
    The buff wasn't thaaaat relevant, but it will stack up.
     
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  17. Mick

    Mick Member

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    1. Concerning hermit: I really like the new design of it, so that it is useful in late game too. But I do think they are doing more work than their worth on e.g. 18. How about aura's upgrade after 15? Just like you get 2 workers, you can get a 'big hermit' or a 'big pack leader', which has an increased aura, for a bit more mythium?

    2. Hydra: I have been thinking about the problem with hydra, and I don't think the main problem is that it's hard to make it leak early. E.g. Bunk can't leak too if you decide to stay 2 workers and build it level 2. The main problem for me is its set-up for the waves after that. You pretty much have a free push until level 7, and you only have to care to build vs level 7. The unit is so insanely strong vs both 5 and 6. And then still, it's tanky enough to make some damage dealers kill level 7 with 9 or 10 workers, or to make your opponent starve with a long save from 3 to 7. So instead of focussing on egg sack, I would make the set-up less OP.

    My suggestion would be to change the attack type of hydra. I think pierce damage is most preferred, since you will need to build for level 6 then, but it's not completely trash vs 6 and 7 like magic damage would be. Even pure damage could be considered.

    On the other hand, if it's not too OP vs 6 anymore, the 2 worker start might not be worth it anymore. How about you pay 175 gold for the egg sack, and you have to pay 50g to make it grow that round? (2 grow rounds = 100g). In that way, you can start with 3 workers on 1. (and you can also decide to OB for 3 if they send there, instead of making it grow, could add some fun too)

    3. Also something about the rolls: I agree, but for the 4v4 queue in season 3. In 2v2 it will have too much RNG in it to make a lot of games truly competitive.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2018
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  18. Seraphin

    Seraphin Member

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    As I said for a very long time, the problem don't come from hydra itself. I still think the problem come from the hydra opening. Till you will have this possibile start, Hydra will be hard to balance since it should not be op in early (which will be the case in low-medium elo) and have to be enough good in mid-late game since you take more risk and cannot push. Don't forget Hydra is an investment. The investment in early is not the same as in mid-late game.

    I would have a suggestion for this. Remove the guarantess, give one more free rerolls AND add the possibility to keep some units from a roll to another one. I mean for example, in my first roll, I have Bunk and Butcher but I don't have tank or any magic damage. I will keep the Bunk and Butcher but reroll the rest of my roll. Like this I can build little by little my entire roll.
    In this case, maybe another free reroll could be too much. Some tests have to be done.

    I'm joining Nacccho here. Mercenaries are really good at the moment (except maybe our Kraken which is really too much situationnal). But definitively, this is the best balance we had for mercenaries!
    Also, hermit just feels strong because we used for a very long time to be bad ! In early hermit is now really interesting but not op and in late game, as you say Jules, if you have 80 mythium, you will send it. Also, this is now a real counter to AoE units. So, those units are not OP anymore !
     
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  19. Bonny

    Bonny Member

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    A fully stacked Hydra will be a bit too much now i guess, but you could maybe give the egg less hp, so its easier to break it in the early game.

    1. U missed Azeria, but overall u are right, there are only a few units with "real" magic dmg. Maybe u need to get more of them with the upcoming legions? The other option is that u get some units like firelord and LoD more often.

    2. I'm really no fan at all of removing the restrictions! This would mean that mm is even more rng, than it is now. The removal will lead to a less competitive game and i really don't want this, but there are some options:
    1. make a draft system (might be really long lasting -> don't prefer this)
    2. give mm some fix units u can select in your profile, and some random ones u can reroll (maybe 1-2 fix and 7 random)
    3. give the opportunity to take 1 unit from the first roll, that will be guaranteed in the 1st reroll (2nd roll). If u want to reroll another time let the player take 2 units that are part of the 3rd roll.
    4. let every players make it own guarantees. There can be a table, where every player can choose a fix amount of restrictions that will change their own roll mechanism. This will be also a strategic decision pre game, that can only be mastered with a lot of skill.

    Concerning the Doppel Headchef change:

    There is the need to change the Doppel not the Headchef. Take away the range again and make sure its getting focused faster!
     
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  20. Nacccho

    Nacccho Member

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    Oh let me also comment one thing about the way you guys buff harbinger.

    Harbinger simply sucks lategame, because it is brutally countered by 2 mercenaries, witch and cent, and to some degree mole....

    The way you guys buff it, it has little effect on what makes it bad late, while it has the potential of causing havoc early, where you can't send those mercenaries. Its a terrible way to balance it imo.