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v3.00/a: Season 2 Rewards, 4v4 Queue, Bot Difficulties, New Map!

Discussion in 'Patch Notes' started by Jules, Jan 11, 2019.

  1. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    2019_0111_season3.jpg

    v3.00a Patch Notes
    - Released on live servers

    4v4

    - Fixed a bug where mercenaries were visible to the other team when sent during the day
    - Fixed a bug where it was possible players to build in both middle areas and lanes
    - Misc cosmetic fixes
    - Significantly improved lighting on Very Low graphics settings

    Performance
    - Various optimizations that should improve performance.
    - Disabled some of in-game messages/notifications in 4v4 for performance and reducing clutter
    - More to come in the future.

    v3.00 Patch Notes
    - Released on live servers

    NEW! Classic 4v4 Queue

    Welcome back, old friend.

    2019-01-11_18h01_02.png

    We heard your feedback. Instead of limiting 4v4 to custom games, we've created a 4v4 queue that uses Speedy Matchmaking (forms a match as soon as possible and shuffles teams based on rating, while preserving parties). Depending on reception and popularity, we're open to the idea of supporting 4v4 with ratings in the future.

    NEW! Desert Ridge 4v4 Map

    We designed a brand new map to accompany the return of 4v4!

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    One of the primary goals of the map is to improve performance, so players don’t crash in the loading screen or experience lag. That’s why the map’s theme is a desert and there aren’t a lot of environment props.

    NEW! Play vs. AI Queue

    You can now play solo or with friends against a team of bots! Current difficulty options: Easy, Medium, Hard. This queue is great for practicing and for players that prefer a PvE experience.

    [​IMG]

    NEW! Ranked Borders

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    Season 2 ends on January 14 at 10am PST / 7pm CET. Rewards are based on your peak rating and level, so there’s no risk in playing. For details, check out the Season 3 Announcement. Best of luck in the final few days!

    On January 14, all ratings will be soft reset. Rating changes will be disabled until Season 3 officially starts (expected January 28).

    NEW! Leaderboards

    Leaderboards are now in three categories: Rank, Level, and Collection Value

    2019-01-11_17h49_26.png

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    Play Menu Update

    Play menu is now separated into Play and Training.

    Play
    - Ranked: 2v2 mastermind-only with skill-based matchmaking
    - Classic: 4v4 with speedy matchmaking
    - Featured Game Mode: Special rules and mechanics, enabled occasionally on weekends
    - Custom: For tournaments and in-houses

    Training
    - Tutorial: Learn the game
    - Play vs. AI: Play against a team of easy, medium, or hard bots
    - Sandbox: A quick way to create a solo custom game with -debug enabled and 10k resources.

    Fixes and Improvements

    - Updated translations
    - Options Menu now loads instantly when discarding changes
    - Fixed a rare bug where a creep wandering into another player's lane got lost
    - Fixed a rare bug where a wave would end twice if a Froggo was spawned just as the wave was cleared
    - Fixed a rare bug where a unit getting stuck in a wall would cause the game to become unstable

    Game Balance

    Mastermind.png
    Mastermind
    - Bonus income: 4 -> 3

    With ranked becoming mastermind-only, the extra income isn’t necessary. The 3 income is still in place for rerolling on wave 1.


    Legion Spells

    Overwork.png
    Overwork red_arrow.png
    - Worker bonus mythium generation on wave 11: +70% -> +60%

    Fighters

    Gateguard.png
    Gateguard red_arrow.png

    - Chaos Hound: Attack speed: 1.24 -> 1.15

    Harbinger.png
    Harbinger red_arrow.png
    - Cerberus: Attack speed: 1.24 -> 1.15

    The spawn positioning change in v2.44 to Chaos Hound/Cerberus was a significant buff, so these units needs to be nerfed back down

    Warg.png
    Warg green_arrow.png red_arrow.png
    - Health: 880 -> 970
    - DPS: 42 -> 36
    -- Damage: 50 -> 31
    -- Attack speed: 0.84 -> 1.18
    - Now satisfies the Mastermind requirement of a fortified/natural tank or offtank

    Shifted into the role of an off-tank, faster attack speed, and better damage thresholds during early waves

    Lioness.png
    Lioness green_arrow.png red_arrow.png
    - DPS: 115 -> 114
    -- Damage: 134 -> 97
    -- Attack speed: 0.85 -> 1.18

    Faster attack speed

    AlphaMale.png
    Alpha Male green_arrow.png red_arrow.png
    - Health: 3000 -> 3300
    - DPS: 143 -> 122
    -- Damage: 167 -> 104
    -- Attack speed: 0.85 -> 1.18

    Shifted into the role of an off-tank and faster attack speed


    DesertPilgrim.png
    Desert Pilgrim green_arrow.png
    - Chain Heal: Improved autocast behavior (now less likely to hold on to the spell at full mana)

    LostChieftain.png
    Lost Chieftain green_arrow.png red_arrow.png
    - Gaia Shield: Shield: 700 -> 650
    - Gaia Shield: Improved autocast behavior (now more likely to buff melee units over ranged units)
    - Fixed a bug where Lost Chieftain would sometimes fail to cast Gaia Shield, usually on itself

    Eggsack.png
    Eggsack red_arrow.png
    - Now has more consistent aggro
    - Fixed a bug where breaking Eggsack early would decrease damage and damage reduction by 10% per stack (intended amount is 15% per stack)

    This significantly nerfs the strategy of intentionally “sacking” the Eggsack by placing it in front or using it to stall the wave

    Hydra.png
    Hydra green_arrow.png
    - Health: 3000 -> 3150
    - Hydraling: Health: 1000 -> 1050

    Mercenaries

    FourEyes.png
    Four Eyes green_arrow.png
    - Health: 2400 -> 2500
    - DPS (without spell): 105 -> 140
    -- Damage: 90 -> 70
    -- Attack Speed: 1.16 -> 2
    - Death Stare: Damage ramp: 25 -> 5 (this number looks small, but due to the significantly faster attack speed, Death Stare is still about half as strong as before)

    Still strong against heavy tanks but is no longer completely neutralized by smaller units. Has very good damage thresholds against base T1 fighters.

    Centaur.png
    Centaur green_arrow.png red_arrow.png
    - Health: 4050 -> 4300
    - Damage: 160 -> 190
    - Cleave: 50% -> 30%

    Centaur currently shuts down too many builds and makes certain units (notably Swift/Arcane tanks and lower tier tanks) obsolete late game. Shifting some power from splash to base stats.

    Waves

    KillerSlug.png
    (14) Killer Slugs red_arrow.png
    - Spell Resistance: 25% -> 20%

    Our next Nomad release is a true arcane tank, which will make wave 14 more manageable

    Cardinal.png
    (16) Cardinals green_arrow.png
    - Health: 1800 -> 1850

    This wave is already a bit weak, plus the Centaur change allows units such as Devilfish, Doppelganger, and Fatalizer to more effectively counter wave 16

    SkyKing.png
    King Upgrades (coming soon)
    - Expected released on PTR: January 18
    - Expected release on live: January 21

    Here’s our current design for king upgrades! We’d love to hear your feedback and any ideas you have.

    - Meant to be a defensive tool, not a replacement for workers
    - Can only be upgraded during the night (build phase)
    - Upgrade pool is shared by all players on your team
    - Generally stronger late game but can also be used situationally early game
    -- Upgrading Regeneration if your king takes significant damage early game
    -- Upgrading Attack or Spell if you predict taking king damage
    -- Using leftover gold to supplement income

    Upgrade Attack
    - Cost: 30 gold
    - Number of upgrades: 10
    - Income: +3
    - King: +6% attack speed

    Upgrade Regeneration
    - Cost: 40 gold
    - Number of upgrades: 8
    - Income: +4
    - King: +0.05% missing health regeneration per second

    Upgrade Spell
    - Cost: 50 gold
    - Number of upgrades: 6
    - Income: +5
    - King: Increases mana gained from auto attacks by 0.25
    - Possible: various spells with unique effects?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 16, 2019
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  2. SirCloud

    SirCloud Member

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    I love the Warg attack speed changes. Unit almost looked like it's something fast.
    The gateguardnerfs are appreciated.
     
  3. Xarku

    Xarku Member

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    I really hate that you are lowering the income to 3 again. It denies a lot of builds after a reroll. And I see no point on lowering it since every player will have it and it gives no advantage.
     
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  4. Der G-Master

    Der G-Master Member

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    I like the idear of King upgrades! I'm excited to see more!
     
  5. Ya Dingus

    Ya Dingus Member

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    love love the king up[s. looking forward to those. load borders look nice too
     
  6. PotatoePlays

    PotatoePlays Member

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    Why're you using gold to upgrade king instead of myth?

    Like how it was in original TD?
     
  7. Nacccho

    Nacccho Member

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    Wait, so the "nerf" was only fixing the bug?
    And it's being upgraded in the same proportion on the hydra (breakeven when it breaks on the second wave)?
    Nerfing just when its used as stall(temporary hatch) or breaks on first wave?

    ~~

    Am i completely out of the meta, or you guys are doing this because you're expecting people to have more line-ups with no standard true tanks?
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  8. Muaddib

    Muaddib Member

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    WoW … pretty excited about these changes :D

    King's UpS could turn a loss to a win, I really approve this. Focus on Defending at 1st stage, and when the team (2/4 players) is ready - counter Attack. Awesome !

    I really need this Shop and cosmetic changes. They will make the game more colourful. :cool:

    Could you guys think about smth ---> Weekly/Weekend events ( X% more chance to get cards, X% more XP, 10 win in a row during the event - new achievement etc ). I really like the Customs, they're fun to play:p

    4v4 is back! Okey, I'll inform my Boss that I need my holiday when S3 is officially released. I will tell him that I have some work to do, I will tell my wife to chek me from time-to-time if I'm alive …

    When I get the early beta key, she told me that I cannot play 10-12 hours per day … I Just said 'Hold my beer!'
     
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  9. SickeDuck

    SickeDuck Member

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    I love the changes. Especially 4 eyes. GJ listenting to the community with the 4v4, even tho I do not care about that mode.
     
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  10. Mick

    Mick Member

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    Sweet! So excited for the start of season 3!

    Well, I am happy about 4v4 in pre-season, since I think it will be very much alive during this period. Not so happy about it being without rating. It will probably either be dead or full of trolls soon. I hope you will take the activity during pre-season as a way it could be if you 'fully release' 4v4 again. I also think a full 4v4 release would have created more hype and made it more succesful by itself.

    I really like the new 'empty' desert map. No more rubberbanding on 4v4 hopefully :D

    Are there any more fixes designed for 4v4 coming up? I named a few possibiilties here: https://legiontd2.com/community/threads/changes-for-4v4.17686/

    Most notable the possibility to re-roll (in my suggestion on level 1, others suggested the re-roll to be a standard spell on level 10) and pings which level to build for are more important in 4v4. I also think a different way of distributing gold is really important.

    I do like this one, because it makes re-rolling, especially the first one, more punishing. So you would much sooner try with your first roll. Does this also mean bonus gold went from 4,3,1 to 3,1,0? Or 3,2,1?

    There are many good updates on units, but this one probably leads to more updates over the next patches. The buff on hydra is beyond me, it's not a weak unit at all. The stalling thing, I can see you try a bit more with the current design of Hydra, but I think it just needs a re-design again. I would love to test if this extra reduction makes a difference when you go 4 workers on level 3, though. Whether it holds or not there kind of makes or breaks this change.

    Especially liking this change, because it will still be effective against spam, but less against stronger units that are heaped up. I wonder what this means for gateguards, though. Even though they have been nerfed, this could be a slight buff (especially to harbingers) because it would take longer to kill them and their minions. Will see.

    The fact that it uses gold, I can see why, but it does not really change anything in strategy now. You can't spend your mythium in another way than sending, which kind of disappoints me.

    The regeneration upgrade seems super-OP to me. It regens 1% missing health in 20 seconds. Imagine you do 5 upgrades with 2 people (after level 15 or sth), costs you 100g per person, which is nothing, (and even extra income to make it less) and it regens 1% every 4 seconds. This king upgrade will destroy any use of doing king damage (though at 90% or higher it will go slow, but I consider that pretty much full health). It will pretty much be killing king from 100% to 0% or not doing much damage at all. IF you would do something like regen, I would say you can buy a heal for 20% of your missing health or something. You should not introduce regen.

    I do love the updates on attack and Spell, also like that you can only do it at night time. That means you can't rush it if you see you need it.

    All-in-all nice update :D
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
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  11. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    Main reason is that it creates too much uncertainty around what the enemy is spending their mythium on. Imagine not getting a send for 5 waves and thinking they are long-saving, when they're actually upgrading the king. Too much of the "power budget" of king upgrades would come from the pressure it puts on your opponents. We thought about ways to make it visible to the enemy and didn't want to force players to have to check the enemy king's buff bar every wave.

    To clarify, the bug happened 100% of the time, so it's basically:
    • A 28.5% nerf to the damage and durability of a 4-stack Hydra
    • An 11.3% nerf to the damage and durability of a 2-stack Hydra
    • A 5% nerf to the damage and durability of a 1-stack Hydra
    And it was compensated with a 5% buff to its durability. Overall, I'm confident it's a nerf.

    As strong as it is, it's still the least taken roll in the game (4th least taken by players rated 1800+).

    Each point regenerates 0.05% of missing health per second. If the king's at 50% life, it takes 42 seconds to regenerate 1%. If you have 5 points (200 gold), it takes 9 seconds to regenerate 1%. And by nature, the regeneration slows down. With 1 point starting at 50% life, it takes 7.5 minutes to regenerate 10%.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
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  12. xanarot

    xanarot Member

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    King stats look interesting, especially since its gold->gold, without the myth step in between. That will really push for a bigger swing possibility in the overall game depending on properly reading your opponent.

    For example did that shroom guy start 5w, or 4w +4-5gold/turn. Will i get a big send since he went greedy, or did he go for extra gold to easily cover a punishment liz on w2 or fiend+ on w3/4.
    Or maybe even, start shroom with just 2w. Send a snail W1 with full king upgrades, and start w2 with already 24g income. 24g income vs the basic 3g that your opponent has as he's saving, allows for a large gap in workers early.
    It'll open up a lot more ways for mental warfare and ways to snowball/scale your value. Also makes the king a potential 'holder' unit if you're both weak on a wave, assuming these are extra stats on top of the current king and not a must-have to survive the smallest leaks late game.



    What i am missing is some 'mastermind' changes and nerfs being reverted. For example
    - Get rid of the unit selector, and just get a random T1+T2+T3+.. as the base for that was the massive power difference between MM and races.
    - Remove the gold income boost entireley, to get rid of RNG build advantages. I.e. pyros start with 3 income gives a worker start of W2 build phase. The exact same build after 1 (or more) reroll cannot unless he got a snail. If you have the same builds, you should be able to do the same things.
    - Implementing a reroll functon as TD1, so you can reroll 1-2-3x (at a cost) at any stage of the game to try and get units your team needs. Right now with 3 rerolls and the # of units, you're pretty much always guaranteed a good setup which sorta takes the skill out.
    - Redefine the gold split on leaks, so both 2v2 and 4v4 can finally work with 'holder'.
    - Turn back the send-to-lane change, and have units be distributed evenly to support the option of pusher/leaker strategy.


    Especially the last 3 are important to have at least 1, if not 2 of them, implemented. A small gold difference (i.e. do you hold the w3/w4 send or not) is currently very punishing as it is typically enough to let the other team get an extra worker AND get you to leak again with just an income send or sending 1 turn later (they get more myth, you lack gold). I dare say most of my games are currently decided before w6. After that its just the team with the gold advantage snowballing away. And no real way your teammate can cover/help you or something you can do to turn it arround.

    If you do get to turn it arround, its typically either luck or because the other team overpushed and saved so you wont be ahead anymore in 1-2 waves time.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  13. Roshkatul

    Roshkatul Member

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    That won't happen because any good player will notice immediately that doing anything like that isn't worth it. For 150g you get 15 income. You would need several waves to get back the 3 workers you're missing. And the 3 missing workers will give you way more income in 2 waves.

    King upgrades will only be used in late, fed games, and the king upgrades are incredibly overtuned. King HP is a resource. It's fairly hard to one shot someone nowadays, which is a good thing for the game. But having such a huge heal/second added, completely breaks it in fed games.



    Have you tried playing warcraft 3 legion td for all of these?
    - Getting rid of the unit selector makes the rolls extremely RNG again. It wasn't only a case of Mastermind vs Legions, but also a case of Mastermind with a lucky roll vs Mastermind with an unlucky roll
    - It was in before, tbh I don't see any disadvantage of the new way of rerolling, but I don't mind the old one either
    - The gold boost can be removed, but later. There's still a lot of balancing done with legions in mind. For example, you can easily make pyro 5 gold cheaper in the following patch, because there's no mech to worry about.
    - True, gold needs to be redefined, but I'm pretty sure they don't wanna invest precious balancing time in 4v4.
    - Why's there the need of a pusher/leaker strategy? I mean, there's already one similar to that which works fairly well. And that works ONLY because of the send-to-lane change. Sending to one lane is probably what increases the skill cap of the game by a lot.
     
  14. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    I originally designed them to have a scaling cost (25 + 5 x wave_number) with slightly different stats. The rationale was to make them more accessible early game. I thought of exactly what you did - in their current state, they will generally be used late game and in fed games.

    Lisk thought having costs that change every wave would be confusing to players, so we decided to go with flat costs. I considered having the upgrade effects be flat instead of a percent (imagine +25 damage instead of +5% attack speed), but that would make the upgrades insane early game and irrelevant late game.

    Let me know if you have any ideas!
     
  15. Roshkatul

    Roshkatul Member

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    Here's a crazy thought..
    It's too hard to mess up with gold/mythium for king upgrades, as that would lead to a huuuge number of issues.

    One boring option would be to make them like legion spells, like pick a king upgrade every X wave.
    But what about making king upgrades cost income? And make king upgradable during day time as well. It wouldn't mess with gold/mythium and it would be a long term sacrifice for a potential chance at surviving.
     
  16. Roshkatul

    Roshkatul Member

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    It's starting to make sense in my head. Make it cost income, and make it give you a small amount of mythium. Could be nice for all in plays, comeback mechanics, mindgames, another resource, everything you wish for.
     
  17. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    We don't like upgrading during the day because it means you can just wait until your team leaks big to the king, then spam upgrade Attack or Spell. We could add an upgrade time, but that feels bad/inelegant. I like that predicting when your opponent is going to send is rewarded, and the mind games that come with that.

    Your income cost idea is interesting.

    Pros:
    • Obvious trade-off between scaling and surviving
    • Rewards accurate predictions (you want to upgrade the king during the night before the wave you expect a big send)
    Cons
    • Seems unviable early game, situational mid game, incredibly strong late game, and a must-take on wave 20 (-5 income is meaningful early game and negligible late game)
    Is there a way to make it viable early game?

    What do you think of my scaling cost idea (25 + 5 x wave_number)?

    It's 5:50am here, and I haven't slept yet, so I can't fully process things right now. But I'll think about this more over the weekend.
     
  18. Roshkatul

    Roshkatul Member

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    I'm not sure if you read my last message, but make it cost income and Grant some mythium. Something like.. pay 10 Inc, get a king upgrade and 5 mythium.
    5 mythium is more important early on, and less relevant later on, making it even.
    Can spawn plays like.. you need 3 extra mythium to send a hermit on 5.. you go for a king up, you lose income, but you make the honeyflower leak full instead.
    Or it can be good for all in plays, or comebacks. You sacrifice 150 income/person later on, but you make sure you survive and you gain some extra mythium for a send.

    Spending gold for king upgrades, especially during the night, feels cheap. It's like you are admitting you are not going to hold, so you are sacrificing more fighter value, in turn leaking more and giving your opponents more gold.
     
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  19. ruckrow

    ruckrow Member

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    Play
    - Ranked: 2v2 mastermind-only with skill-based matchmaking
    - Classic: 4v4 with speedy matchmaking
    - Featured Game Mode: Special rules and mechanics, enabled occasionally on weekends
    - Custom: For tournaments and in-houses




    Why is ranked mastermind only?
     
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  20. xanarot

    xanarot Member

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    If you start with 3 income vs 24 income, that is a lot of gold/workers tho. Having an extra T1 (or 2 even) on w2, and/or an extra T2/4x T1 on w3 can hold so many big sends.

    Typical w3 send is a brute or fiend. Thats 15-18g/turn. With the non-reroll 3g start, thats 18-21g/turn. So if you get an early send, you can hold it easily and then push workers with the extra value/income you have. Alternative is for your opponent to save significantly longer, but then you'll for a much longer time gain ~20g/turn over them, allowing you to push a lot more aggressively post-send. Ofcourse they in turn can underbuild/overpush hard.

    It's worse on long games, i agree, as myth is time-based and gold is round-based. But on a fast game (low workers/fast clearing, or a game that ends w11 or before) it could be an interesting mechanic to have extra ways of generating income.

    Good players may indeed easily spot it, except you're quickly talking top 1% rated if not less people that it applies to. In terms of overall value, fast-income could become an interesting additional way to play for the majority of the player base.




    Rolls are only RNG, if you cant reroll. You dont need a full set of 6 good units. Just need units for early, mid, late game. In that order. If you know what you're doing, just about any random T1 trough T4 combination can get you through untill w7-9, so no real need to reroll before that unless you want to go greedy for 5w start. After that, depending on the games progress you can consider a reroll depending on your and your teammate's weakness or the wave you want to race on.


    The need for pusher/leaker strategy is because of a come-back mechanic. You can see it now, with the current pusher/leaker (1 guy building, 1 guy full-income from wave 1-7 and then typically building bunk on w8) its so incredibly easy to beat them with the send-to-lane and the current gold split ratio of leaking units.
    The one sending to the 'leaker' lane just goes full-income for maximum value - and each leaked unit also feeds whoever gets the big sends. Result is incredible value on both of you fighting the pusher/leaker, and insane holding potential to the point where a King typically takes no damage at all on those games.
    There's just no way to make that viable in the current state of the game.


    Likewise if your teammate is currently broken by the other team, lets say he leaks 3 and 7, putting him far behind in the value game (either underbuild for leaks on any send, or low-worker/income and bleed to death). There's just no way to support him towards recovery. The guy he sends to can overpush, knowing your team is going to leak more (in case of race-sends) or knowing that he gets smaller sends. Its a win-win to just blindly worker up.
    Result is you are also forced to start overbuilding. The leak also gives them extra time, for that extra worker, to be even more valuable.
    Since you also have to get behind on workers, to try and hold the bigger send, and its just a matter of time untill the game is formally lost. Its just gonna take time for them to kill your king, but you will have already 'lost' 5 or 10 waves before that actually happens.

    Now, i dont know how the top 100 games go yet. But almost all my lost games have the 'gold difference' as a nice red graph and the 'won' games a nice green graph. They typically start between wave 3-5 (first leak or first send/worker advantage) and dont switch back, because of the exponential setup of this game. First one ahead can abuse it.

    Pusher/leaker or going holder or whatever doesnt have to be a viable tactic on the full wave 1-20 spectrum. But it would be nice to have a way to fight back if you leak a wave early, instead of it being a race to see which of the 4 players leaks first.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019