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v3.10: King Upgrades

Discussion in 'Patch Notes' started by Jules, Jan 18, 2019.

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  1. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    2019_0118_KingUpgrade.jpg

    Season 3 begins this coming Monday, January 28th PST. Get your carry pants on!

    We’ll make an announcement as soon as ratings are re-enabled. Hoping for as early as 9am PST / 6pm CET, but it could be later if we encounter any issues.

    Season 3 is expected to end in June 2019. Rewards will be based on peak rating.

    v3.10b Patch Notes
    - Released to live servers!

    Matchmaking

    Rating System
    - Add a small activity booster to rating. Rating changes are still based on Elo, but on occasion, you’ll notice a game with, say, +16/-15 rating stakes (instead of the usual +16/-16)
    - You can think of this as a way to offset or compensate for rating decay and connection issues. Even if you personally never decay or disconnect, rating decay and ties actually deflate the rating of all players over time. This change adjusts for that.

    Duo Penalty
    - Decreased in most cases. Matchmaking will now be less punishing when you play with friends.
    - Increased when very high-rated players duo with very low rated players, to discourage smurf boosting

    Fixes & Improvements

    Quality of Life
    - Wave Info table now shows amount spawned (if you mouseover the wave icon) and total reward (if you mouseover recommended value)
    - A few other misc tweaks

    Player Profile
    - Now tracks/displays ranked wins and ranked losses this season
    - Legion-specific ratings are no longer shown (since for season 3, ranked is mastermind only)
    - Legion-specific ranks are now based on XP

    Stats & Trophies
    - Non-ranked games now count towards your games played and trophies (e.g. 100-win Atlantean trophy)

    Game Balance

    SkyKing.png
    King red_arrow.png
    - Health reduced by ~7% in 3v3 and 4v4 games

    UpgradeKingRegen.png
    Upgrade Regen red_arrow.png
    - 0.025% -> 0.02%

    Leak Bounty
    - Reduced by 20% in 3v3 and 4v4 games to compensate for the longer waves and higher chance of leaking (which significantly inflate the amount of gold in the game). This affects both the leak bounty to you/your team and gold you feed to the opposing team, so the power effect is net neutral
    - All fractional leak bounties are dynamically rounded up/down, rather than always to the nearest integer. So a leak bounty of 3.2 has a 20% chance to round up to 4g and an 80% chance to round down to 3g, instead of always rounding down to 3g. This should fix some cases where too much gold or too little gold was being rewarded due to rounding.

    v3.10a Patch Notes
    - Released to live servers!

    UpgradeKingAttack.png
    Upgrade Attack green_arrow.png red_arrow.png
    - 3% attack speed -> 10% attack damage

    UpgradeKingRegen.png
    Upgrade Regeneration red_arrow.png
    - 0.03% -> 0.025%

    Fixes
    - Fixed a bug where reconnecting sometimes broke upgrade supply/research king upgrades

    Quality of Life
    - Fixed a bug where the enemy king's animations sometimes didn't play

    Debug Commands
    - Fixed a bug with -open not working properly

    v3.10 Patch Notes
    - Released to live servers!


    NEW! King Upgrades

    King upgrades are a new mechanic to the game and will be available in 2v2, 4v4, featured game modes and custom games!

    2019-01-18_18h57_51.png

    King Upgrades
    - You can upgrade as few or as many upgrades as you want
    - Can be upgraded on any wave during the night (build phase)
    - Upgrade pool is shared by all players on your team
    - King upgrades count towards your MVP score (which is just for bragging rights anyway)
    - You will be notified at the start of the following wave when the opposing team upgrades their king
    - King upgrades stack additively

    [​IMG]
    Upgrade Attack
    - Cost: 15 mythium
    - Number of upgrades: 10
    - Income: +3
    - King: +3% attack speed

    [​IMG]
    Upgrade Regeneration
    - Cost: 20 mythium
    - Number of upgrades: 8
    - Income: +4
    - King: +0.03% missing health regeneration per second

    [​IMG]
    Upgrade Spell
    - Cost: 25 mythium
    - Number of upgrades: 6
    - Income: +5
    - King: Increases area of effect spell damage by 15%

    Game Improvements & Fixes

    Leaderboards
    - New leaderboard: Peak Rating (peak rating this season)
    - Overall level added to Level leaderboard

    Fixes
    - Bots: Fixed a case where sometimes bots wouldn't build (added a failsafe to handle the case where they try to build in a blocked position)

    Quality of Life
    - Dual Building: Grid lines now disappear for your lane if you build mid and vice versa
    - Dual Building: Scoreboard now shows averaged mythium per 10 sec
    - Ranked: Now skips legion select screen
    - VFX: Fixed a bug where visual effects would sometimes be the wrong size, especially with units that got bigger from being buffed
    - Interface: Now grays out "Upgrade Supply" if you can't afford it
    - Interface: Added small triangular arrows to show where tabs expand
    - Interface: A few other misc improvements

    4v4 map
    - Reduced dust effect, which will make things look less glitchy at normal zooms

    Tutorial
    - Fixed a bug with Saving Mythium where the wave didn't end properly (due to a failsafe from a previous patch)

    Post-Game Stats
    - Now shows king upgrades and how many workers you had when the wave spawned

    Game Balance

    SkyKing.png
    King Base Stats red_arrow.png
    - Attack speed: 0.92 -> 0.87
    - Health regeneration: 0.5/sec -> 0
    - Area of effect damage: 66 scaling to 1543 -> 57 scaling to 1342

    Pyro.png
    Pyro green_arrow.png
    - Damage: 32 -> 33

    Dual Building in 4v4 green_arrow.png red_arrow.png
    - You can now build in the four corners of the middle area
    - The following abilities now only affect a maximum of 20 units, which is functionally only a nerf to dual building
    -- Pyro’s Pyromancy
    -- Honeyflower’s Fragrance
    -- Deathcap’s Noxious Scent
    -- King Claw’s Shell Shock
    -- Millennium’s Explosive Shells
    -- Doomsday Machine’s Detonation
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2019
  2. Ya Dingus

    Ya Dingus Member

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    king upgrades look neat. excited to try them. pyro buff yay. i dont play 4x4 but seems like you are doing some balance changes there?>
     
  3. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    No extensive balance changes planned for 4v4. Just doing what it takes to keep it fun!
     
  4. SirCloud

    SirCloud Member

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    The King nerf actually makes the updates interesting. Atk speed + Spell dmg combo could be interesting if you're snowballing.
     
  5. Themryon

    Themryon Member

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    Why did you change the costs to mythium instead of gold?
     
  6. Nacccho

    Nacccho Member

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    Gold was counter intuitive, as other players highlighted, its tough to go for king upgrades when you feel on the verge of leaking, thus having less value and leaking more.

    Even though, it was also said that mythium upgrades would steer the early game to "starvation". Mick was the one making a good case for myth upgrades.

    I personally think jules escalating gold cost and Rosh's income cost were better ideas and i thought myth was the worst way to go. But we shall play and see.
     
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  7. Mick

    Mick Member

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    My first response: YAAAY MYTHIUM KING UPGRADES :D:D

    I am guessing this means one can do 10/10 upgrades, and other 0/10 upgrades?

    Great solution to the notification problem :)

    I really like that you made one of the upgrades 15 mythium, because this gives you an extra option if you miss 1 or 2 gold and you won't make the 20 myth.

    I would say the income numbers are probably a bit high. Saving for one round already makes upgrading king do better. I feel like this might play into the 'starvation game' hand that Rosh and Nacccho have been warning for. Will test that out

    Another thing that might be suggested if it needs further fine-tuning is having half of the upgrades available until level 10, and the other half opening after level 10 (so 12 upgrades = 240 mythium, before 10 -> 12 more upgrades = 240 mythium, after level 10)
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2019
  8. Roshkatul

    Roshkatul Member

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    Well, there's one thing I did not account for. It looks like you can see, similar to how you see mercenaries received when your opponent upgrades king. That might actually make it balanced.

    I'm still not 100% convinced tho
     
  9. SirCloud

    SirCloud Member

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    I wonder if suicide cross is viable now. You basically can go for income early by upgrading the King without feeding the enemyteam a huge worker count and still survive waves the enemy is saving on.
     
  10. Aren

    Aren Member

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    We are in save mode now. Would it be better to roll it out to the live servers so the majority test the upgrades while they not mess up the rankings because it's to weak or to busted?

    Last time when 4vs4 came out the beta test server was empty :( *tumbleweed*

    Looking forward to the upgrades ^^
     
  11. Roshkatul

    Roshkatul Member

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    I really have to study for my exams right now, but I just can't take any big breaks or holidays without thinking about Legion TD2.. So I'll spend some time writing this post about king upgrades.

    I was really disappointed when out of all of the possible features you could've introduced for season 3, you picked King Upgrades, mainly because the WC3 concept would never work in LTD2. But I was still expecting something different, interesting and balanced. Buuut, we ended up with a similar version to the WC3 concept, minus the king heals, which makes it kind of a shit show.

    For the sake of explaining my logic better, I'm gonna use a fictional character named "Julia" as the devil's advocate.

    Issue No.1:
    "Upgrade spell" is crazy broken.

    Why is that? There are several waves in this game which are balanced around the king's AoE spell. The most notable example is WAVE 16, which had to be buffed exactly to survive x2 king AoEs in order to deal some king damage.
    Right now, with full spell upgrade, the king almost one shots wave 16, leaving it with like 150 hp..
    ...
    Julia: These numbers can easily be modified! If the upgraded spell deals too much damage, we'll nerf it!
    ...
    Nope, that's not a good answer. It's true, this upgrade is crazy overtuned. But even if it only granted a 15% damage increase when maxed, wave 16 for example would still die off in 2 AoEs, making wave 16 a wave on which you just can't send if the enemies have like 50 mythium invested in spell damage.

    Issue No.2:
    "Upgrade attack spell" is almost just as broken

    Why is that? It will always double dip with the spell. More attack speed, means more mana regeneration, making swarm waves really weak. Even a small amount of attack speed translates into more mana regeneration.

    Issue No.3:
    "Upgrade regeneration spell" is really strong, as well.

    Why is that? King HP is A HUGE RESOURCE in this game. Depending on your king HP you can play safer/riskier and so on. Adding an ability which regenerates your king HP is absolutely... terrible, because you basically kill off the value of this resource.

    In WC3 LTD, King hp wasn't a HUGE resource, but HEALS were.

    The current regeneration spell in LTD2 is almost as if your king upgrades in WC3 would slowly add more king heals to your team, which would be completely busted.

    Now I'm going to talk about possible solutions which the devs would consider to fix these issues, and I'll go through each of them explaining why they are bad.

    Possible solution:
    ...
    Julia: Nerf the unupgraded king, and make the fully upgraded king be slightly stronger than the current king.
    ...
    - This would feel like.. a meaningless way of overcomplicating the game.. because it adds nothing to the gameplay, we're just gonna end up with a king which is almost the same as the current king, after weeks of concepts, coding and balancing.
    - It wouldn't be balanced. For example, if a fully upgraded king is slightly stronger than the current one, a fully unupgraded king would probably die really easily to small leaks. And since you can't upgrade king during daytime, there might be scenarios where a team would probably die to 5 creep leaks on wave 13 or some BS like that.
    Possible solution:
    ...
    Julia: Well, we can do that and also make king upgrades available during daytime, that way you can still save mythium or upgrade king if you leak
    ...
    That would probably break the only thing which keeps king upgrades slightly balanced early game, as you would be able to "income upgrade" king, receiving one extra wave of income.

    Possible solution:
    Add king heals similar to wc3. I guess that's a way of scrapping a few years of effort towards king balance, but which could work in the end after a few more months of balancing


    Another solution:
    Completely scrap the current version of king upgrades and go for something new, more ingenious and more intuitive from a balance stand-point.

    One idea which @ithion had was to have something similar to spells in WC3 (thorns, immolation, and so on), which could be upgraded. This would be really tricky to balance as well though.
    One idea which I've had based on ithion's would be to have some simple abilities, with upsides and downsides, which reward reading your opponent. Some random ideas would be something like king specializations:
    - King takes 10% (or maybe even up to 20%) reduced damage from impact, takes 5% increased damage from pierce and magic damage. (5 upgrades of 2% reduced damage, 1% increased damage)
    - King deals 15% extra damage against swift opponents, deals 5% reduced damage to fortified, natural and arcane armor.
    And variations of these spells for every attack type. You can only choose like.. 1 of each, or you could make it so every type of these specializations last for X amount of waves (for example 3 waves), and after that you can pick another one.
    Would make for some interesting plays, like.. You pick the anti swift upgrade, which allows you to x2 shot wave 16 and survive on wave 16, but in case your opponents skip for 17, you are screwed.
    Having rolls bad on 14 wouldn't be so bad anymore, you can go full anti arcane/magic and still survive.
    Isn't perfect, doesn't take into consideration A LOT of things, but it could have some potential if thought out by more people

    Right now, king upgrades are completely broken, they are good on every wave, there's little to no mindgames involved. And I'm saying this ignoring the fact that the spells in their current form are crazy overstated.

    I can't say that I'm not disappointed that this is what we ended with after more than a month of potential brainstorming from the devs. I seriously thought that you guys had a really good concept in mind when you announced king upgrades for season 3.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2019
  12. Mick

    Mick Member

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    I have played several games on the PTR now. First thing is that the spells need to be tuned down a lot. King is very OP now. Like, it can hold 100% of the wave + some extra sends if it's maxed.

    One more thing that really needs to be considered is suicide strats now. Not that it will always win, but even if it's a bit above average, it will lead to the kind of crazy fat games, which are fun to play once in a while, but have not much to do with subtle balance and good choices et cetera.

    I'm also a bit worried about King Upgrades. It's clear the game has not been balanced/made with King Upgrades in mind, so it might take a long time to find a right way to fit it in. It's clear that at the moment the right way has not been found yet. I would first like to see how King Upgrades affect the game when they are more in tune, before making any more radical conclusions though :D
     
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  13. Mick

    Mick Member

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    So I noticed a lot of people see the current concept of King Upgrades as dead. I don't agree.

    I thought of a possible way to try to fix the king upgrades. In my opinion, there are 2 things that need to be fixed: 1) Adding damage to king spell messes up the balance of a lot of waves (like Rosh said, wave 16 is based upon the 3 AOE instead of 2 AOE). 2) There needs to be more REAL decision making, instead of: regen is always good if you are missing HP. This is my suggestion how to improve those things:

    Remove it, you will never get back to the careful balancing of the spell anymore, no matter how much is tweaked.

    Instead, replace it with this (obviously, the numbers may not be super accurate)
    Upgrade King Attack
    - Cost: 25 mythium
    - Number of upgrades: 6
    - Income: +5
    - King: Increases damage by 5%

    Why upgrade damage attack? We all know certain waves leaves either units (wave 12?) or mercenaries at a bit of health. Knowledge of how many attack upgrades makes your king kill units in a hit less may be decisive between winning and losing. Even though I doubt this will be much influence in a lot of lower skilled games, and King Attack will just be standard maxed there, it can add something to high-skill.

    Change it to Upgrade King Speed, and you can keep it, though probably with a small nerf (make the costs 20 or 25 myth too). This is the actual spell buff, not the 15% added damage, because you will get your spell faster again. Faster may be GOOD to have, but it won't be broken like adding damage and having the units die to one AOE earlier.

    Also the difference between upping Attack or Speed can be based upon the wave (a lot of units, or a few), or on the send you expect. If you expect strong mercs (320+ units) you can up Attack, if you expect aura-units, or something of that kind, you can rather go for speed.

    Even though this regeneration is not truly broken, I would suggest reworking it. Why? Because regen is pretty boring at the moment. It is always good to have regeneration if your king has been damaged, so there is not a real choice. My suggestion is to make 'healing your king' a true choice. (Again, I don't know if the number are great)

    Upgrade Heal
    -Cost: 100 mythium
    -Number of upgrades: 4
    -Income: +25
    -King: Heals for 20% of missing Health
    -> Disappears after wave 15

    Why change it like this? Because 100 mythium is quite a big investment to heal for 20% of missing health, so it is a real choice you have to make: making your king stronger, but sending less. There are situations in which this is preferable (if you can't make your enemy leak soon anyway, if you know you have higher income), but also situations in which it is not beneficial to do this. It also tackles the problem that you can keep regenerating endlessly, which is sometimes stupid (e.g. if you go to 10% health like 3x in a game, and you regen to 50-60% really fast again).

    I added that you can only do it until the start of wave 15, because I believe that when double-workers are introduced, this would become a must-have to upgrade it 4x. Maybe that is not a huge problem, since you can only upgrade it 4x, but for 'brainless up the heal'-danger, I said to remove it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2019
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  14. Roshkatul

    Roshkatul Member

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    I have to say that the upgrades you suggested do sound a bit better than the ones we already have, but even those have weird implications. Upgrading the attack damage/attack seriously nerf waves like 10/13/15/20 due to the low amount of units/wave. So it once again ruins the balance if we change the super-anti-swarm-wave with a super-anti-single-target ability. I guess the difference between something like this and something like I posted above, is that like this, you know since the beginning of the game which wave they will hard counter if they go for king ups (you already know their king can be good on 10/13/20 and against w15 mini boss), while if you have something like king ups dedicated for attack/armor types or dedicated spells, you don't know which wave they ll be able to cover since the beginning of the game.

    The concept is fairly good though, having an ability against swarm waves, and an ability against waves with low amounts of units (even if that means mind gaming isn't even that important, since each of the upgrades cover like half of the in-game wave).
    The issue comes up when one of the abilities (for example the anti swarm one, which we could consider the attack speed one) is really good on the other waves as well


    P.S. Nimea pointed a nice thing in discord. Even if these OP upgrades costed income, the games wouldn't all go to 21
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2019
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  15. Mick

    Mick Member

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    This is the thing I am also struggling with, every king upgrade makes the game more likely to go long. So a suggestion like making it give less income seems like a good one to me, even though it should not be that low that it is not viable anymore. But reducing their incomes to 2 or 3 income could be a good way to make the game 'less fat' and thus less likely that King + values will hold until 21.
     
  16. Darktarant

    Darktarant Member

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    just why are you starting with patch 3.10 and not 3.01
     
  17. nimea

    nimea Member

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    Maybe we will only get 8 more patches this season
     
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  18. Nacccho

    Nacccho Member

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    Yup, said this before also. Games are already too long Imo.
    But with less income optimal sends, and no gold from killing sends, and being able to skip longer might change things, so we wait and see.


    If saviour was absolute dog shit spell before, imagine it now ;p
     
  19. Darktarant

    Darktarant Member

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    well they did the same in season 2
     
  20. Buschkreatur

    Buschkreatur Member

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    First i thought the removal of the fog would be temporarily. But it wasn't. You were able to know what would happen the next rounds (sometimes more than 5). With the king upgrades i hoped there would be a new dynamic, because it could be a save or a king upgrade. Nope, you still know what the enemy is doing. Still a totally transparent and undynamic game.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2019
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