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v3.15: Nekomata, Scoreboard, Roll Recommender, Mercenary/Worker Queue

Discussion in 'Patch Notes' started by Jules, Apr 26, 2019.

  1. Themryon

    Themryon Member

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    Ok i understand and thanks for offering to do the copy paste stuff yourself. I was probably a bit over the line with my reaction, but i was really not inclined to do tedious copy paste stuff.

    One remark still :you do know that even though it is just copying, it is a pita because the card and the units are not in the same order in the sheet. So i (or you) have to search for the unit, search for the card and add the correct translation. If the order would be the same, i could just copy paste 50 rows and add "card".
     
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  2. basti

    basti Member

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    I really like the rating with 0.3, 1.0 arcane etc. The new unit looks fine as well. But i think we have enought arcane tanks with impact dmg. I mean 3 out of 4 real arcane tanks have impact dmg. Sand Badger, Millenium, Whileshroom, just gargoyle has magic dmg and pewee is shit. So may pierce dmg would be the better option for the new unit. So you have more "real" decisions, what to pick if you get >= 2 of them in your roll. For sure, they are not all the same, but if you play with em, they feel very similar.
     
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  3. Robert Mends

    Robert Mends Member

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    @basti
    I do agree that Nekomata feels very similar to Wileshroom, now even more so that it scales with max-hp buffs.
    Sand badger is more of a true tank, and Millenium feels like a bulky damage dealer to me. While Nekomata is an off-tank just like the Wileshroom, same hp-regeneration fantasy. However, it does also have a fishy fantasy which makes Nekomata stand out a bit, but I agree with your point. Impact seems to go with arcane hand by hand.
    If I get both Nekomata and Wileshroom in my roll it would be quite disappointing. Two very similar units.

    I will try to look at this from another side. Looking into the future a bit, imagine we have 15 different Legions. Of course similarities between units will be inevitable, but as long as the Mastermind roll system works good, this shouldn't be a problem, since the system will be able to fill every needed role with the large available number of different fighters.

    This made me think of another aspect. When we have 15 different Legions, that is 90 different fighers with roughly 180-200 total different fighters including upgrades.

    Imagine you're a new player trying to get into the game. Let's say you start playing Normal as soon as it's available because you like being matched based on your skill level. How long would it take for you to get the idea of good synergies and effective builds given 90 different units? With the Mastermind only Normal this is an insane amount of information to learn. Now the game is balanced mostly around the top players I feel. The game is thus very hardcore and punishing. Top players have been with the game since the beginning and gradually increased their knowledge slowly with each new fighter released. They know how to get the maximum out of their roll. However, if you don't know how to play with maximum efficiency, you get punished.

    Now imagine a lower rank game. Everyone has some towers they don't have any idea how they work. Someone (or everyone) fails and leaks once, get punished for the leak by the system and leaks whole game. Not a pleasant experience at all. Ok, next game you get totally different fighters, and so on and on.

    I played Dota at one point in my life. In Dota you can get the idea of how a couple fighters work and then just stick to them every game, slowly gaining general game knowledge, at some point you try another fighter and so on and you get better. Some people would say "You have casual for that, play with Legions first and go into ranked after you get the idea how the game works". But this is wrong.

    Firstly, Classic game mode is utter trash. I played it once and never again. Legion TD 2 is not balanced around 4v4 or Legions, so nothing is balanced and nothing works.

    Secondly, the value of the experience you get in Classic is almost irrelevant in Normal. You learned how to play with a Legion or two? Very nice, now learn it all over again with Mastermind. And until you do, you will leak and get punished by the game.

    Damn, what firstly was meant to be an agreement with basti's words turned into a long-ass post. Also I have to go right now. Ok so general idea: the game is unfriendly for new players, pls fix. Roll advisor is a great step forward, but I don't know if it's enough to make Normal bearable for new players. I have 900 hours of Legion TD 2 and thousands of Legion TD behind my shoulders, and still I have no idea how to play Prophet/Mastermind with good results. Suggestion: bring Legions back to Normal. I want to comfortably play Legions in a competitive environment, not the Classic trash fiesta.

    Sorry for the long and non-structured post, this was rather my mindflow than logically argumented anything.
     
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  4. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    Understood! I may be able to write a lookup function that does it, but I'll have to try later after this patch, etc.
    Agreed! About to push a PTR update with Nekomata as pierce. The reasons I originally made it impact were (1) it worked a bit better with the attack type profile of Shrine, and (2) we don't need any more units that are hard countered by wave 13.

    With that said, I still agree Nekomata is better as pierce since we have enough impact/arcane units and Wileshroom is similar enough (early game melee arcane/impact off-tank).
    Thanks for sharing, Robert! My thoughts are:
    • One advantage of mobas like Dota, as you pointed out, is that you can just main one or two heroes and familiarize yourself with other heroes by playing with and against them. Legion TD 2 requires game knowledge of many units, which can be intimidating.
    • Good news is that it's relatively easy to learn new units. Once you learn the game fundamentals (proper builds, when to worker, incoming vs. saving, attack-defense types, supply management, etc.), learning a new unit is pretty straightforward. Sure, you'll need some games to learn how to optimally incorporate a new unit into your builds, but you should have an understanding of how to use it just by reading the stats and abilities.
    • The difficult part is actually learning those game fundamentals. It can be hard for us to realize since most players on the forums and Discord have played hundreds or thousands of games and tend to be higher-rated. The reality is that most new players struggle learning how the game works. I've seen players get lost and be unable to find their lane, not realize mercenaries even exist, not understand what workers do, etc. That's why we've been prioritizing things that make the game more accessible to new players and less stressful and intimidating to most players. To be clear, most of these changes aren't just for new players. They're something that we believe improves the game for 95%+ players. Some of the features may not directly improve the game for the top 5% of players, but I think we can acknowledge that everyone benefits when the game is more accessible and has a larger player base.
     
  5. Lisk

    Lisk Director Staff Member

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    v3.15a is up with some fixes

    - Fixed some Spirit Offering interactions (Sacrifice, Lioness, -value command, and others)
    - Fixed in-game font size
    - Fixed some bugs with Power Score
    - Fixed options sliders
    - Fixed in-game scoreboard not automatically opening in ranked games
     
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  6. Sakuragi

    Sakuragi Member

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    First thanks for this patch, great work, but after playing a few games I'm not rly fan of the scoreboard.

    "Players, especially new players, frequently commented that they thought they were doing well until they suddenly lost. The in-game scoreboard provides quicker feedback when they get ahead or fall behind, which should help with the learning curve."

    I often have the same problem, my ennemie leak at start but then destroy me after and that's a part of the game sometimes ur not doing as good as you think you are but now ? I just check the scoreboard to see if my ennemie is behind or not, to see if I should resend or not

    It's hard to explain but not a good addition for me, this is a game where you outsmart ur opponent and I feel like this scoreboard just make it harder to do so
     
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  7. s0n0fagun

    s0n0fagun Member

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    You are not gonna win games based on the information you get out of the scoreboard in the first place. So if I were you I wouldn't make myself too dependent on it

    Winning games is done by punishing your opponents mistakes and/or weaknesses in their builds, not by the scoreboard ;)
     
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  8. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    Thanks for sharing, Sakuragi. Here are my thoughts:
    • The reasons we added the scoreboard are to help players orient themselves and understand the game state, and to give players a feeling of satisfaction when they're strong.
    • Your peak rating this season is 2101, which puts you in the top 0.2% of ranked players this season and the top 0.1% of players overall. If you were to take 1000 random Legion TD 2 players, you'd expect to be better than 999 or 1000 of them. That makes you an elite player. You said it yourself - sometimes you don't fully understand the game state and think you're doing well, only to suddenly lose. If it happens to a highly-skilled player like yourself, imagine how often it happens to others.
    • The scoreboard is basically a way of giving out information. In Legion TD Mega, all players' worker counters were revealed after wave 10 as a way of helping players orient themselves and understand the game state. We think the scoreboard is a better design because it gives out information at all times (not just on wave 10) without revealing specific information.
    • I understand your point about how it removes an element of skill about reading the game state. I agree, though I'd argue it's a good thing in this case. When we first added the "mythium received" text, some players commented that it was dumbing down the game because part of the skill of the game was remembering what mercenaries were sent and when. Most of us would agree now that memorizing exactly what mercenaries were sent and adding up the mythium isn't fun and the game is better off now.
    • Keep in mind that current players will generally prefer the current mechanics of the game because we've spent time investing and learning those mechanics. Put another way, people that play Legion TD 2 like Legion TD 2. We're doing our best to be mindful both of the needs of current players and of potential players (new players and players that quit). Our data suggests the biggest things stopping players from enjoying Legion TD 2 are difficulty learning the game, difficulty understanding what it takes to improve, feeling lost/stressed about all the information to keep track of and decisions to make, and not experiencing the satisfaction "highs" of playing well. Another big one is the fact that new players will often lose their first ~10 games, which feels really bad. Our goals are to make the game more accessible and fun and to grow the player base enough to be able to match new players with each other. Those go hand in hand.
    • As a player, I find the scoreboard comforting since it opens up some mental bandwidth and allows me to orient myself and enjoy the game more. Personally, I haven't found a way to abuse or leverage the scoreboard to my advantage. If you're paying close attention, you can probably tell when a player does Allowance vs. Venture, though you get the information 1 wave late and I don't think it hurts the game that much.
    Sorry if I rambled a bit. Just wanted to share everything I was thinking. :)
     
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  9. Lisk

    Lisk Director Staff Member

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    v3.15b is being deployed with some fixes & Nekomata nerf!

    Fixes
    - Fixed a bug with queueing a mercenary not being sent in time for income
    - Fixed a bug where fighters would accidentally be selected even when you didn't have the tower selected
    - Fixed Daily Users count
    - Fixed some bugs with choosing your display name (New accounts)
    - Fixed a bug where spamming Spirit Offering (or other abilities) would accidentally deduct extra resource costs
    - Fixed some bugs with "Saving" tutorial and made some tweaks

    Quality of Life
    - Slightly improved sound mixer
    - Tweaked mercenaries received color on 4v4 map
    - Ability cast sounds now only play for the player who owns the casting unit

    Localization
    - All characters are now allowed for display names
    - More texts fixed

    Nekomata
    - Spirit Offering: Health gain per stack: 180 -> 200
    - Devour: Heal: 8% -> 2%
    - Fixed a bug where spamming Spirit Offering would accidentally deduct extra gold
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2019
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  10. Mick

    Mick Member

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    I agree that the only time Power Score can be sketchy is with legion powers. I don't think it's necessarily an abusable thing. The thing why I dislike the Power Score is because it replaces some of the 'magic' in the game with cold numbers. Things like thinking you are doing good, or thinking you are behind are gone now, because there are the facts stating it. Thinking you can come back and going full for it, when you are behind is easier to get behind when you don't see you are actually lacking 1,000 value for it. Thinking you made a good trade saving and making them leak, instead of income sending. Now there are no convictions anymore, everything can be traced back to facts.

    I actually like it when you agree with your ally your save was actually worth it, even if it didn't make them leak, or agree that your opponent was not so fat, when in fact he was much more. Trying to reason the game into your advantage and things like that. It's part of the morale and mind games and actually a big part of the game and whether you play a good game. And I will really miss that part if you decide to keep the Power Score.

    I would still much rather prefer you add Power Score per level to the end-game stats, so players can look back and see how their scores went and learn like that, instead of during the game.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2019
  11. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    I can definitely appreciate your perspective. One thing to keep in mind is that power score takes into account gold, mythium, and income, so being ahead or behind in score can mean different things. Higher score could mean you're higher value, as you said, but it could also mean you have lower value but better scaling (higher income) or that you're in a position to strike (higher mythium). For example, let's say it's wave 12, and you and your ally are down 300 in score. If you hold their send on 12, there's a good chance you'll rise ahead in score on 13. I know that doesn't completely solve the issue for you, but it's helpful to know. Will keep in mind what you said as we evaluate.
     
  12. Mick

    Mick Member

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    Alright, yeah I know there are pro's and con's to it, and I'm happy if I know you at least considered that point of view. To close that off, I want to give one example of a game I just played (I could give more).

    After level 10, one enemy upgraded king 100 myth per round. I was 16 workers and highest Power Score with low value. The one upgrading king was 400 PS (Power Score) behind. My ally stayed low workers, saying: "I'm afraid he fakes, so I stay low", to which I said: well he is .4 Power Score lower than me, and he would have to be higher workers than me, which is impossible if he has enough value to hold, so just push".

    This comes close to abusing the PS imo, because if you are low value, mid-workers and highest PS, you know your enemy cannot be lower value, so he cannot have the same amount of workers, meaning in this case you could deduce he could not be saving, when without PS my ally would have stayed lower value. If I am already able to do this after less than a week, then smarter people than me will probably be able to deduce more soon.
     
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  13. SirCloud

    SirCloud Member

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    Nice, spell resistance removal makes dcap viable again pre16.
     
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  14. Roshkatul

    Roshkatul Member

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    I absolutely agree with everything Mick said, but I'm gonna add some more.

    Power score adds up mythium, income, gold and value, right? Jules, you underestimate how easy you can estimate someone's value pretty accurately at any point in the game, even on late game waves, just by looking at their setup/killing speed. That also makes it much easier to figure out their worker count, just by looking at their score.
    If they have less or as much value as you do, but a much lower power score, you can easily figure out that they are way weaker on workers.

    + Instead of making it easier for players to figure out their power, power score will most probably cause a bunch of -ff spams from lower elo players. Even high elo players won't be happy knowing that they have a much lower power score, even if they know they can still maybe come back.

    So yeah, I hate this "feature" from a gameplay standpoint. Maybe only make it show the powerscore for your team and the other team in the endgame screen
     
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  15. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    Thanks for the specific example. That's not the intended use case of power score, so the concern is duly noted. Will need some time to evaluate and come up with the best solution. Full context, our priority for the rest of this week is on patch stability and some important marketing efforts happening soon.
     
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  16. SiegeMentality

    SiegeMentality Member

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    Power Score = Workers

    I played a few rounds last night. I was lowest workers in a 4v4, and lowest power score. Yet, I was the only one holding my waves, and still managed to break my opponent when I sent.

    So, what exactly is the point in power score? To further inflate the epeens of kids that push to 160 workers and go into 20 with 6k value?
     
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  17. s0n0fagun

    s0n0fagun Member

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    Next time, share some screenshots with us :)! Maybe there are other causes that led to your low powerscore.
     
  18. SirCloud

    SirCloud Member

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    Probably on a very bottom spot on your priority list but when can we expect cosmetics?
     
  19. Dimlhugion

    Dimlhugion Member

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    I don't have strong opinions either way on PowerScore, but I will say this much: I dislike how it seemingly can't be toggled off. Also decidedly not a fan of the new default positioning of the Attack/Armor and Wave Info boxes - it feels like they're encroaching in my "play area" visual space. Not to mention, they overlap the PowerScore chart itself, so even when I do want to check on things I have to toggle them off and/or move things around.

    With regards game design in general though, I think we have to remember Murphy's Law: Make something that even an idiot can use, and only an idiot will want to use it. I understand the need to grow the playerbase, but I wonder if we actually want to attempt to retain people who literally don't know mercs exist. Like, at a certain point you either have the intellectual capacity to learn and are willing to utilize it, or you don't or aren't. We have a website, we have a discord, we have streams and youtube vids, we have in-game tutorials, we (occasionally) have people willing to help live in-game.

    Again, I don't think Powerscore is inherently bad, it's just a tool to help analyze certain metrics. I'm just trying to caution against falling into the trap of trying to rope in too broad an audience. Cast your net too wide and you'll drag up nothing but mud from the ocean floor.
     
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  20. Roshkatul

    Roshkatul Member

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    I disagree.

    The game wants you to cook a Beef Wellington

    - The in-game tutorial gives you a fork and a knife
    - LF's videos teach you how to turn on your stove
    - Most of the tutorials are so badly made that they barely teach you how to take a beef fillet out of the freezer
    - Other half of the tutorials are so outdated that they teach you how to cut tomatoes
    - Streams are pretty much non-existent, or you sometimes see a pro chef pour salt over his food without telling you why
    - The newly introduced power score basically tells you the temperature in your kitchen.

    After checking all of the information available about the game on the internet, you are left out with a fork and a knife, a turned on stove, a slab of meat on your table, a few cut tomatoes, knowing that there are 24 degrees celsius in your kitchen.
    And after hours of searching and watching some mediocre content you still don't fucking know what a beef wellington is and why you suddenly have a bunch of tomatoes in your kitchen.

    This is pretty much how LTD2 looks like to a new player.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2019