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v4.00: Season 4

Discussion in 'Patch Notes' started by Jules, Jun 21, 2019.

  1. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    Dev Update
    A few weeks ago, we hit a huge milestone of 100,000 players getting the game. Thank you to everyone for your support. Our goal is to grow the number of active players so that matchmaking is fast and fair at all times. To get there, we're working on a major code refactor that allows us to do a free-to-play weekend. To track our progress, check out our monthly dev blog Looking at Legion, written by our incredible mod team: LForward, deutscherhawk, and jitsuc4.

    Season 4

    Season 3 ends on June 24 at 8am PST / 5pm CEST. Ranked rewards are based on peak rating this season, and ratings will be soft-reset.

    Based on feedback from last season, we're making two changes:
    • There is no preseason. Rating changes will be re-enabled ASAP after the reset.
    • The reset is less aggressive to minimize matchmaking imbalance that naturally comes with resetting ratings. If you're 1450+ rating, you will end up higher than last season.
    v4.00 Patch Notes
    - Released to Public Test Realm (PTR). How do I join PTR?
    - Released to live servers!

    NEW! Shrine T3


    - Cost: 80 gold
    - Health: 800 (Swift)
    - Damage: 40 (Magic)
    - Attack speed: 0.9
    - Range: Melee

    Pay 1 gold to equip with a shuriken for the next wave only. Each shuriken deals 40 bonus damage from 500 range. Max shurikens: 5

    via Sketchfab


    - Upgrade cost: 200 gold
    - Health: 2740 (Swift)
    - Damage: 135 (Magic)
    - Attack speed: 0.9
    - Range: Melee

    Shuriken Cyclone
    Pay 4 gold to equip with 3 shurikens for the next wave only. Each shuriken deals 40 bonus damage from 500 range and attacks 2x at fast. Max shurikens: 15

    via Sketchfab

    NEW! Legion Spells

    - Gain 40% of your unspent gold at the start of the next 3 waves

    - You can’t hire mercenaries or upgrade the king until after Wave 12 spawns. Then, +80 gold and +80 mythium.
    -- If you hire mercenaries during wave 11 before selecting Embargo, they will be refunded
    -- If you upgrade the king during wave 11 before selecting Embargo, Embargo will no longer be available

    Guardian Angel
    - Gives a fighter a buff that brings it back to life after it dies, up to a maximum of 2500 health

    Pawn Shop
    - You can now sell fighters for 80% of their total cost. Also, +50 gold.

    NEW! Legend rank

    Congratulations to Kingdanzz on being the first player to ever hit 2800+ rating!


    Major Gameplay Changes

    Some of these changes are experimental and may be reverted based on reception. We know it feels bad when something you’re familiar with changes, but positive change makes the game more fun after adjusting to it. We’re not afraid to try new things and see what sticks.

    - We’re revamping the way you select fighters. On wave 1, you still get 10 units to choose from, but can no longer reroll twice.
    - Bonus income for picking Mastermind removed
    - Wave 1 prep time: 90 seconds -> 80 seconds

    - You can now re-roll up to 5 times at any time to get 6 new fighters. While rolls are random, they are not purely random. The roll selector attempts to give you a balanced roll with a variety of attack/defense types, etc.
    - If you reroll, you cannot undo or downgrade units that wave, but they can still be sold for 60%.
    - Rerolling is available for both Mastermind and legions

    The old Mastermind had a heavy emphasis on drafting and preparing your strategy ahead of time. The new Mastermind keeps the drafting element but allows for more flexibility and variety. Less of the game will be decided before wave 1, and a clutch reroll could have huge reward mid or late game.

    - Removed from the game

    Supply was a mechanic that kept spam builds in check and allowed for some interesting strategies, but ultimately added more frustration than it was worth. Removing supply also makes the game more intuitive, which helps attract and keep new players.

    - Stock timers replaced by stock cap
    - Maximum stock per wave is now 10

    Stock timers were an artifact of Warcraft III that limited the number of mercenaries you could send. For most players, it wasn't fun to track stock timers. Changing this mechanic makes attacking more intuitive and opens up a bunch of new strategies.

    move speed.png
    Movement speed
    - All units 9% faster

    The goal of this change is to reduce dull moments in the game when units are moving but not actually fighting.

    Game Fixes & Improvements

    Interface Update
    - HUD now better shows the relationship between income --> gold and workers --> mythium


    Gameplay Fixes
    - Bots are now smarter when it comes to overvaluing vs. training workers
    - Bonus spell damage no longer affects movement speed buffs. This fixes a weird interaction with Great Boar's Stampede and Sorcery.

    Quality of Life
    - Fixed a bug with queuing up mercenaries after the wave ended but just before income is received; they are now dequeued after income is received
    - Profile "NEW!" text now only shows up if you haven't already earned that item/trophy before (it was showing up a bit too often)
    - When viewing the postgame score screen, if a new patch comes out, you are no longer booted until after you go back from the score screen
    - Middle click (mouse wheel click) now disabled on main menu/loading screens where it would mistakenly scroll the screen
    - Worker button is now grayed out if you can't afford to train a worker
    - Improved Power Score UI - mousing over Power Score now shows rating image, and you can now left-click a player's power score to pan to their lane
    - Fixed a bug where pinging a unit played the ping sound twice

    - Improved graphics performance slightly & reduced game file size by compressing many unit textures

    Balance & Reworks

    Legion Spells

    Full House
    - Removed from the game

    Lizard Army green_arrow.png
    - Mythium: +15 -> +20

    Protector red_arrow.png
    - Health: +700 -> +650
    - Protection Aura: 10 regen + 3 damage reduction -> 10 regen + 2 damage reduction

    - Removed from the game

    - Now a separate spell from old Sorcerer
    - +20% spell damage

    - Now a separate spell from old Sorcerer
    - +20% mana regeneration

    Vampire green_arrow.png
    - Lifesteal/Spell vamp: 20% -> 25%

    Ooh baby

    - Removing supply is a significant buff to cheap units, so most of them are being nerfed

    Pollywog red_arrow.png
    - Health: 140 -> 110
    -- Damage: 8 -> 7

    Seraphin red_arrow.png
    - Health: 600 -> 570
    - Damage: 52 -> 51

    Devilfish red_arrow.png
    - Health: 1170 -> 1120
    - Damage: 39 -> 38

    Proton red_arrow.png
    - Health: 220 -> 190
    - Attack speed: 1.28 -> 1.25

    Atom red_arrow.png
    - Health: 940 -> 920
    - Attack speed: 1.28 -> 1.25

    Bone Warrior red_arrow.png
    - Health: 150 -> 140
    - Damage: 9 -> 7

    Dark Mage red_arrow.png
    - Health: 640 -> 600

    Buzz red_arrow.png
    - Health: 180 -> 150
    - Damage: 11 -> 10

    Consort red_arrow.png
    - Health: 890 -> 850
    - Damage: 55 -> 54

    Peewee red_arrow.png
    - Health: 330 -> 310
    - Damage: 10 -> 9

    Veteran red_arrow.png
    - Health: 1430 -> 1410
    - Damage: 38 -> 37

    Looter red_arrow.png
    - Health: 110 -> 90
    - Damage: 11 -> 8

    Pack Rat red_arrow.png
    - Health: 650 -> 600

    Masked Spirit red_arrow.png
    - Health: 220 -> 180

    False Maiden red_arrow.png
    - Health: 750 -> 710

    Hell Raiser red_arrow.png
    - Health: 1550 -> 1510

    Angler green_arrow.png red_arrow.png
    - Health: 410 -> 430
    - Range: 150 -> 100

    Bounty Hunter green_arrow.png red_arrow.png
    - Health: 1600 -> 1700
    - Range: 150 -> 100

    Kingpin green_arrow.png red_arrow.png
    - Health: 4250 -> 4400
    - Range: 150 -> 100

    Aqua Spirit green_arrow.png red_arrow.png
    - Health: 400 -> 360
    - Damage: 30 -> 24
    - Attack speed: 0.72 -> 0.76
    - Water Bounce:
    -- Bounce damage: 50% -> 100%
    -- Bounce range: 200 -> 400
    -- Bounce speed: +60%

    Make Aquas great again

    Fire Elemental green_arrow.png red_arrow.png
    - Health: 1150 -> 1350
    - Damage: 45 -> 30
    - Combustion
    -- Now stacks
    -- Damage: 50 damage over 2 seconds -> 30 damage over 2 seconds
    -- Number of bounces: 1 -> 2
    -- Bounce range: 200 -> 400
    -- Bounce speed: +60%

    It’s now viable to build more than one Fire Elemental

    Rogue Wave green_arrow.png red_arrow.png
    - Damage: 58 -> 45
    - Attack speed: 0.79 -> 0.76
    - Delusion
    -- Number of bounces: 1 -> 2
    -- Bounce range: 200 -> 400
    -- Bounce speed: +60%

    Gargoyle red_arrow.png
    - Health: 230 -> 220

    Ranger green_arrow.png red_arrow.png
    - Damage: 31 -> 36
    - Mark Target removed
    - New ability: Accuracy: Deals +25% damage to bosses

    Daphne green_arrow.png red_arrow.png
    - Health: 1200 -> 1150
    - Damage: 110 -> 115
    - Nature’s Touch removed
    - New ability: Precision: Deals +50% damage to bosses

    Ranger's and Daphne's old abilities were limiting their versatility. We're pushing them to be DPS units, rather than supportive.

    Bazooka red_arrow.png
    - Health: 350 -> 320

    Pyro red_arrow.png
    - Health: 1800 -> 1730
    - Damage: 32 -> 31

    Harpy green_arrow.png red_arrow.png
    - Health: 250 -> 230
    - Damage: 22 -> 23

    Sky Queen green_arrow.png
    - Health: 1310 -> 1320
    - Damage: 84 -> 88

    The movement speed increase causes Harpy and Sky Queen to gain less mana for their Acrobatics attack speed, so they are receiving compensation buffs.

    Nekomata green_arrow.png red_arrow.png
    - Spirit Offering
    -- Cost: 20 -> 30
    -- Health gain: 200 -> 300
    -- Damage gain: 9 -> 15
    -- Devour: Health gain: 2% of max health -> 1%

    It’s too easy to quickly max out Nekomata early game, which wasn’t intended

    Sea Serpent red_arrow.png
    - Health: 580 -> 570
    - Attack speed: 0.95 -> 0.93

    Deepcoiler red_arrow.png
    - Health: 1720 -> 1700
    - Attack speed: 0.793 -> 0.787

    Violet red_arrow.png
    - Damage: 78 -> 75

    Gateguard red_arrow.png
    - Health: 720 -> 700

    Canopie green_arrow.png
    - Health: 4300 -> 4350

    Tempest red_arrow.png
    - Health: 800 -> 780
    - Damage: 32 -> 31

    Leviathan green_arrow.png red_arrow.png
    - Health: 2600 -> 2350
    - Aerial Command: Damage buff: 4 + 12% -> 4 + 15%

    Alpha Male green_arrow.png
    - Health: 3350 -> 3370

    Ocean Templar green_arrow.png
    - Resonance: Health regeneration: 15 + 1% missing health -> 15 + 1.5% missing health

    King Claw green_arrow.png
    - Shell Shock: Mana cost: 12 -> 11
    - Shell Shock: Damage: 80 -> 75

    Mudman red_arrow.png
    - Health: 1730 -> 1710

    Butcher green_arrow.png
    - Leech: 5 life on-hit + 14% life steal/spell vamp -> 5 life on-hit + 16% life steal/spell vamp

    Head Chef green_arrow.png
    - Vampirism: 10 life on-hit + 21% life steal/spell vamp -> 5 life on-hit + 24% life steal/spell vamp

    Honeyflower green_arrow.png
    - Health: 1230 -> 1240

    Deathcap green_arrow.png
    - Health: 3400 -> 3500

    APS green_arrow.png red_arrow.png
    - Health: 1330 -> 1150
    - Energize: 3 damage + 8% attack speed -> 3 damage + 12% attack speed

    MPS green_arrow.png red_arrow.png
    - Health: 3100 -> 2700
    - Mythium Core: 6 damage + 12% attack speed -> 6 damage + 18% attack speed

    Desert Pilgrim green_arrow.png
    - Fixed a bug with Desert Pilgrim's Chain Heal where it would sometimes not bounce to a damaged target under certain circumstances

    Priestess of the Abyss green_arrow.png
    - Damage: 37 -> 38

    Azeria green_arrow.png red_arrow.png
    - Health: 3500 -> 3200
    - Invigorate: Mana cost: 20 -> 15

    Disciple green_arrow.png
    - Mana Burst: Mana cost: 12 -> 11

    Starcaller green_arrow.png red_arrow.png
    - Health: 3400 -> 3100
    - Damage: 200 -> 190
    - Asteroid: Mana cost: 12 -> 11
    - Asteroid: Damage: 600 + 0.5% max health -> 500 + 0.5% max health
    - Amplify Magic: Mana regeneration: 25% -> 40%

    Antler red_arrow.png
    - Health: 2200 -> 2180

    Doppelganger green_arrow.png
    - Attack speed: 2.08 -> 2.13

    Berserker green_arrow.png
    - Attack speed: 1.49 -> 1.52

    Fatalizer green_arrow.png
    - Health: 5500 -> 5650

    Sand Badger green_arrow.png
    - Damage: 75 -> 76

    Iron Scales green_arrow.png
    - Damage: 200 -> 205

    Fire Lord green_arrow.png
    - Attack speed: 1.04 -> 1.06

    Fenix green_arrow.png
    - Attack speed: 1.04 -> 1.06

    Lord of Death green_arrow.png
    - Undead Dragon: Damage: 90 -> 95

    Hades green_arrow.png red_arrow.png
    - Mana: 30 -> 50
    - Raise Imp: Mana cost: 15 -> 20
    -- Mana regen and mana gain from Necromancy are still 1

    Banana Bunk green_arrow.png
    - Health: 2950 -> 3000

    Banana Haven green_arrow.png
    - Health: 6550 -> 6650

    Millennium green_arrow.png
    - Damage: 335 -> 340

    Doomsday Machine green_arrow.png
    - Damage: 800 -> 810

    Great Boar green_arrow.png
    - Health: 3160 -> 3200

    Red Eyes green_arrow.png
    - Health: 8000 -> 8100

    The movement speed increase causes Great Boar and Red Eyes to gain less mana for their charge damage, so they are receiving compensation buffs.


    Giant Snail red_arrow.png
    - Health: 700 -> 560
    - Damage: 30 -> 24

    Compensation nerfs for the change to mercenary stock, which allows more Giant Snails to be sent each wave.

    Brute green_arrow.png red_arrow.png
    - Health: 780 -> 820
    - Damage: 49 -> 55
    - Maul: Attack speed slow: 8% -> 5% (still stacks up to 9 times)

    Making Brute a more versatile send and less countered by unit spam

    Witch green_arrow.png red_arrow.png
    - Range: 400 -> 450
    - Froggo: Range: 250 -> 400
    - Summon Froggo: Mana cost: 24 -> 30
    - Advanced Necromancy: Mana gain: 2 -> 3
    - Mana regen is stitll 1

    Stronger against unit spam. The extra range also keeps the Froggos out of splash range on melee waves.

    Four Eyes green_arrow.png
    - Damage: 72 -> 75

    Ghost Knight green_arrow.png

    - Damage: 160 -> 165

    Centaur green_arrow.png
    - Damage: 205 -> 210

    Siege Ram green_arrow.png
    - Damage: 290 -> 300

    Kraken green_arrow.png
    - Damage: 295 -> 305

    - Removing supply creates a significant influx of resources, so most waves are being buffed as compensation

    (3) Hoppers red_arrow.png
    - Attack speed: 1.05 -> 1.04

    (4) Flying Chickens green_arrow.png
    - Attack speed: 1.06 -> 1.08

    (5) Scorpions green_arrow.png
    - Attack speed: 1.04 -> 1.06

    (6) Rockos green_arrow.png
    - Attack speed: 0.79 -> 0.83

    (7) Sludges green_arrow.png red_arrow.png
    - Health: 520 -> 560
    - Damage: 35 -> 40
    - Number of spawns: 12 -> 10
    - New ability: Blobs: When it dies, spawns a Blob

    - Health: 140
    - DPS: 8
    - Bounty: 2

    (8) Kobras green_arrow.png
    - Attack speed: 0.99 -> 1.07

    (9) Carapaces green_arrow.png
    - Attack speed: 0.73 -> 0.77
    - Added VFX for Deflection to help players know it exists

    (10) Granddaddy green_arrow.png
    - Damage: 170 -> 115
    - Attack speed: 2.24 -> 3.7

    (11) Quill Shooters green_arrow.png
    - Attack speed: 0.7 -> 0.8

    (12) Mantises green_arrow.png
    - Attack speed: 0.98 -> 1.1

    (13) Drill Golems green_arrow.png
    - Attack speed: 0.76 -> 0.86

    (14) Killer Slugs green_arrow.png
    - Damage: 127 -> 90
    - Attack speed: 0.77 -> 1.2

    (15) Quadrapuses green_arrow.png
    - Damage: 130 -> 110
    - Attack speed: 0.88 -> 1.23

    (16) Cardinals green_arrow.png
    - Damage: 106 -> 90
    - Attack speed: 0.94 -> 1.3

    (17) Metal Dragons green_arrow.png
    - Damage: 165 -> 120
    - Attack speed: 1.02 -> 1.67

    (18) Wale Chiefs green_arrow.png
    - Damage: 150 -> 100
    - Attack speed: 0.77 -> 1.19
    - Poison-tipped Pole:
    -- Damage: 300 -> 200
    -- Now triggered on the first attack
    -- Refreshes on kill

    (19) Dire Toads green_arrow.png
    - Damage: 220 -> 75
    - Attack speed: 1.04 -> 1.25
    - New ability: Split Shot: Attacks up to 3 targets but can still strike the same target with multiple attacks

    (20) Maccabeus green_arrow.png
    - New ability: Insatiable Hunger: Upon getting a kill, heals 50 and increases its damage by 1

    (21) Legion Lords green_arrow.png
    - Inferno
    -- Splash damage: 5% -> 10%
    -- Legion Lords now also have Inferno
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
  2. Bonny

    Bonny Member

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  3. jqob

    jqob Member

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    I wanted to write a post as my reaction to new content, might extend this post to more things later on.

    - boost for up to 5g/20g. Very similar to pewee/veteran - gains damage and range for the first 5/15 attacks. Very strong in my opinion. Because the cost is so flexible, you can spend all your rest gold on these boosts when you expect a big send.
    Also it is kind of a cheaper option(at 80g) of devilfish(95g) to hold waves 3/4.

    Legion spells

    - Interesting. It is basically a safer venture - you only risk to leak on 11, on 12 you can build again for full value.

    Embargo - A pretty strong spell. Good for wave 13/14 offensive moves.

    Guardian Angel - OKAAAAAY, this is super OP. I don't really know what you were thinking. -10 income? HAHAHA. Put this spell on a unit like Banana Haven (700 value) which will tank and die first, then you basically get a free haven for free. 700 gold from a legion spell. WHAT THE FUCK? :D hahahaha. Make it revive the unit at 50% hp or 100% hp if the unit costs less than 300 value. Something like that.

    Pawn Shop - Looks decent. A long-term version of sacrifice. Not very strong in my eyes, but useful in some situations.
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
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  4. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    I think it's much stronger on Banana Haven, Hydra, or Red Eyes (high value tanks). It wouldn't really add 715 value on a Doomsday Machine because the second Doomsday is only active after the first Doomsday dies. So I'd say closer to +500 effective value on Banana Haven, +300 effective value on Doomsday Machine. It really depends on the wave and how much the unit is tanking though.

    Might be too strong though, you're right. Will get some more testing in, and we can always nerf it.
  5. jqob

    jqob Member

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    Yeah I've edited my post just a couple minutes ago when I realised that doomsday was a bad example. Haven and something like a Fertalizer put in front line would be so OP. read my suggestion (making the unit get revived at 50% hp if it has 300+ value). Because just as you said - 500 effective value on haven, is too big of an advantage. Imagine if you have haven and other players dont have a high value tank. You pick guardian angel and get 500 value while they pick dark ritual and get 135 value and -15% king hp. How is this balanced??
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  6. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    With 5 rerolls, you can almost always get a high tier tank out by wave 11 if you really want to. There are also other spells that can offer similar or more effective value (Sorcerer on multiple Deathcaps, Villain on Hell Raiser late game, Magician on multiple Red Eyes, Hero on multiple Hydras, Vampire on multiple Banana Havens, etc.), but you're right that it's probably too easy to get unfair value from Guardian Angel. Will test it more, I promise.
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  7. Lisk

    Lisk Director Staff Member

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    @jqob It's probably not balanced yet :D, that's why it's on PTR for testing! If you have time, it'd help out a lot if you can sign onto PTR sometime and help test it compared to some other legion spells / extra value (like testing haven + GA vs. two havens for example), then post some results.

    edit: also Shurikens are ranged while the actual unit is melee, so it's a little different than Boost (but still pretty similar like you pointed out)
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
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  8. jqob

    jqob Member

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    Did a couple tests. Of course it is very situational and not accurate for normal games but:

    Wave 14
    50% leak / 2x HAVEN + 3x zeus
    67% leak / HAVEN + GA + 3x zeus

    Wave 14
    67% leak / 2x DOOMSDAY
    75% leak / Doomsday + GA

    I dont know how to measure total health of survived enemies, so its also not very accurate representation.

    So it varies between 75-85% of the result. 80% of 700 value is 560. 560 gold from a legion spell.
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  9. Troll Eater

    Troll Eater Member

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    I will only refer to the major gameplay changes and will list my personal expectations I had coming up to this season.


    Lack of bonus income results in invalidity of many existing builds and/or strategies, shake up of meta is fine, but having to consider rerolling was always exciting part of pre-wave1 as I knew it puts me in position where I might get a better roll, but won't be able to utilize amazing starts due to lack of extra gold from income.


    This makes the game turn into autochess rng fiesta, basically spam all available towers throughout the whole game. If you plan a send in 2-3 rounds you might as well send for income as opponent can reroll any time into best unit for it and cancel out your desperate send while everyone income sends left and right and you fall behind with income. The "Clutch reroll" in the comment under it refers to lack of predictability combined with cluster-fuck of information as everyone will have every unit; competitive nature of this game, that made me fall in love with LTD2, will officially be over with start of season 4.

    Also I felt like introduction of "Suggested Roll" was good enough for new players as the rolls offered were usually good to play, do we really need to give them opportunity to reroll ever 2-3 rounds so they can finally hold a wave?


    In my eyes it kills the game, enough was said on discord and I already expressed my concerns there multiple times. Terrible idea, but after finding out about random rerolls I am not sure which one is worse. In my eyes supply in legion is as essential as supply in warcraft3, it keeps the balance of economy/army ratio in check (going above 50 food in warcraft3 made you suffer upkeep that reduced your economy gains, but allowed bigger army), this usually helps out the player that is behind as the one ahead has to suffer slower economy or limit size of his army - similar to LTD2 with having to evaluate if i should sell off my t1u and afford bigger send on 9 or 10 pre-supply - this also punished me often due to amount of gold I lost while selling up to 20 t1u in one game.


    The only change that has a chance to be fine in the major gameplay section, allows for "funnier" sends and possibly more practical counters to certain builds (but hard to even say with clusters of units people will spam and combine). Also makes auras feel slightly overpowered as sends like pack leader + mole + 10 lizards + 10 snails (imagine a witch with that too) are likely to make sends like this 95% correct in all situations - although I did not test this thesis.

    Movement speed

    I read somewhere it is meant to reduce the server loads, but why in the first place increase server loads by uncapping supply? Compensating bad decision with quick fixes is not a way to go in my opinion. Even thought it has not that much of impact on the game itself I just find it silly that rushed ideas (referring to uncapped supply) force other solutions to be implemented.

    Second reason I heard about was to speed up rounds, this is not bad in most cases, but it will impact usefulness of "splits". As you noted yourself "reduce dull moments in the game when units are moving but not actually fighting." the moving part is possibly most exciting one as smart placement of "splits" can allow your tank and rest of army to survive that 1-2 seconds longer and hopefully allow your king to live after a leak. Placement is key part of the game and I am not sure if reducing it's relevancy is a step in the right direction.

    General Feeling / Summary

    I was looking forward to the new season as I felt like past 6 months the progress and new content really stepped up, I enjoyed all the new units, mercs, summoner spells, king upgrades, as well as bug fixes and game helps/assists introduced. Game was becoming more accessible for new players and allowing more diversity in veteran games (really liked addition of sandbadger and masks).

    Coming up to season 4 I had some expectations, but understood not all can be fulfilled. I never thought we could end up with so many gameplay changes that destroy the original LTD that we knew. My pre-rumor/announcement expectations were:

    1) lobby engine 2.0, i know it's coming up, but was hoping maybe time is now already ;)
    2) plans for new tournament/league - I don't think there is much reason to play, currently we are only playing for the magic "rating" number displayed next to our names. In order to get it higher it comes down to grinding and in many cases having luck when it comes to teammates. If we had a regular competition or a weekly event in a non-rating format (some league system) there would be quite a bit of incentive to practice different builds and engage in the regular "ranking games" and not really care so much for that number slipping a bit after your teammate threw the -30 game that you will be working back next 4-6 hours. 2 months ago had a 2k+ elo teammate who was so busy flaming me for my 15% leak that he forgot to build next wave, leaked 90% and literally killed our king - this happend 2 games back to back same guy, same story, -60 rating. I don't want to care for the rating, give me a reason to play for experience and not get trigged over stupid losses that make me grind for hours.
    3) new units/spells/mercs/balance/ease of use (delivered, thanks)
    4) was slightly hoping we would get the in-game shop ready with 1 or 2 skins so new revenue streams could support the game (I understand it requires more talents like Curing and all mighty Lisks and that they can't double themselves).

    TLDR: I am very sad for gameplay changes (especially REROLL, probably worse than the supply idea), only new mercenaries system has a chance to be interesting and I am not sure if I will remain as entertained by the game in the coming season, I am looking forward to other players hands on experience before setting myself back in.
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
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  10. Barashnukor

    Barashnukor Member

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    Hello Jules, Lisk and other stuff...

    I really like the game, but i feel this patch will kill the rest of a couple of really great players.

    The change with the supply i dont like, but ok, i could live with that, but the change with the reroll, is absolutly a no go, and as i sayed before, i think u lose a lot of the big players with that.

    Please take a uite minute, and think about it. this makes the game more unplayable. After a few waves, u know what your opponent has, with this rerolls, its quite unplayable. And its more complicated.

    Please please please, dont do it.

    You desdtroy your game.

    Thx for your attention.

    bidza1, Schwingeling and SirCloud like this.
  11. holepercent

    holepercent Member

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    Removal of supply and rerolls will change the fundamentals of the game all over again, taking the game in a very different direction.

    Like other "major" changes, there will be players who will leave, others who make noise, adapt and play on, as well as those who embrace the changes and play more.

    At least this provides content for MM48, if that column ever gets posted.
  12. s0n0fagun

    s0n0fagun Member

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    Removing supply cap,, I can live with that honestly. The 5 rerolls however,, a swing in the miss! It kinda gets impossible to make a strong punishable send based on someones fighter line-up simply because someone can so easily change that.

    I hope you quickly change something about the reroll thing. The rest of the patch,, good work!
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  13. Cornep

    Cornep Member

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    Supply removal, not a fan, this will cause such a shitstorm in balancing world that boy do i not envy ranked people. WHile definitely not a fan, i can live with this,.

    MM with 6 FREE rerolls, i thought i was getting punked when i read about this on discord. Scouting might as well not exist, 6 rerolls guarantees you have like half of the units in the game every game so why bother seeing what units are chosen on wave 1.

    Also since when has pig splash damage been influenced by their movement speed? They travel a distance and mana is generated from the distance no? so no change. Also im assuming movement speed only touches on units as it is stated, so wave moves same speed.

    AoE will become even stronger with merc changes. either you roll AoE or you die under the zerg swarm.

    Outside the massive features, what in the holy name of RNGesus happened with wave 7?
    SirCloud likes this.
  14. Marchombre

    Marchombre Member

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    I think that creeps run faster too.
    Which mean less distance will be traveled by pig before colliding the wave.

    It should be the following:
    Creep: from wave
    Fighter: what you build
    Merc: what you send
    Unit: all the above.

    But I'm not sure why you would buff HP and not damage, since damage are nerfed here.
  15. Cornep

    Cornep Member

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    Shouldnt really matter @Marchombre if you have a pig at the top, the wave wont move more than a handful of pixels, 9% more pixels will be like 1 more pixel, which is maybe 1 less mana
  16. Bluejin

    Bluejin Member

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    I suppose they coded Harpy and Pig so that the duration of movement is the important part and not the actual distance. Something like
    fixedUpdate( if currentPos != lastPos mana++; ) is computationally more efficient than additionally computing the distance they travelled each time.
  17. bidza1

    bidza1 Member

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    have to agree with my former writers, that are afraid that this game turns into a casual playable autochess gamemode. I just want to write my opinion about one of my concerns, as they all lead to the same conclusion:
    Losing supply is in my opinion a loss to the depth of the game, you dont need to think about when to do it, you dont have to think about when the enemy did it and in lategame a 125 mythium supply upgrade makes a huge difference into a send. Also maybe the trade-off between going supply, or sell units and get a stronger send, is lost.

    This all sounds like not of a big deal, we went through a supply rework already - but its not how at least I want to play this game. Its meant to be competitive and i can see that attracting newer players is very important, but changing the game into something that some (most? I talked with some of my premades, which ALL(!) didnt like the changes) player dont support, is not the way of doing it. You are doing great work with the game, but you had so many chances to attrack new player, adding new legions and new units on a regular base (not every 6 weeks), getting your lobby 2.0 done, RELEASE the game out of early access (with, like 8 legions), get some huge streamers on board, get a shop done, go free to play, there is so much that can attract new players, most likely more effective! But changing the game every now and then so that new players dont have to think about supply, rolls, unique things, then you lose the point that made this game so fantastic!

    And i know a lot of people dont want changes, i would say i am NOT one of them, i like new things, adding new things, going risks, but this is not constructive, but destructive, and I played Paragon, where the devs acted in a similar way like you do and changed things in a regular basis. I liked it, but most didnt, in the end it killed the game since its playerbase wasnt big enough, and it didnt attract enough new players, to get going.

    All in all: Please consider this patches and dont release them! make it as a game mode if you really want to, but you will lose a lot of players if this is live. I will be fair and maybe change my mind if it comes online and is actually fun, but from what i read here, i am very likely one of the people, that lose interesst in playing it at least semi-competitive. I would be happy to change my mind and congratulate you guys in a year, but I cant believe this will happen.

    Still keep your work going!
    SirCloud and Themryon like this.
  18. Ya Dingus

    Ya Dingus Member

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    holy batman thats alot of changes. looking fowrard to the new season
  19. Dimlhugion

    Dimlhugion Member

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    idk guys, I think some questionable choices were made with this patch. I'll reserve final judgment until I see it in action personally, but my gut instinct tells me that most of these fundamental changes ought to be reverted if the devs want to retain any semblance whatsoever to the game we have currently.

    I mean, just a crude example. Bone Warrior costs 15 gold and will have 140 Swift health, right? Granddaddy attacks 2.38 times per second for 170 Impact damage per hit. 170 * .8 = 136, so it takes two hits to kill a single bone warrior. 1 / .38 = 2.63 which means every third second or so it gets a third hit off, effectively killing 1.5 bone warriors in that second. 1.5 + 2 = 3.5 warriors dead per 3 seconds = 7 bone warriors dead in 6 seconds.

    Granddaddy has 10,000 Arcane health and the slowest attack speed unit in the game is probably what, Millenium? .41 attack speed Impact for 335 * 1.15 = 385 damage per hit (rounded down). This means a single Millenium needs 10,000 / 385 = 26 hits (rounded up) to kill Granddaddy, which takes 26 * 1.41 = 37 seconds.

    In 37 seconds, Granddaddy can chew through 44 bone warriors. 44 * 15 = 660 + 290 = 950

    With the removal of supply cap, it will be mathematically possible to hold W10 with 950 value or less. In practice, it will most likely be LOTS less, because the bone warriors themselves are hitting the boss, and the millenium itself can take a hit or two, and 99 times out of 100 you're going to have a faster attacking unit than millenium anyway. The free rerolls all but guarantee a chibi-T1 + T6 combo, and all that extra gold is going to get dumped into eco which is going to make games a clusterfuck by wave 13.

    Strats like this are likely going to become the meta, and I don't personally find that appealing.
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  20. jqob

    jqob Member

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    Tell me. You hold 10 with 950 value. How do you plan to hold 11 with 44 bone warriors? Lol. you cant see everything so simplified.