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v4.00: Season 4

Discussion in 'Patch Notes' started by Jules, Jun 21, 2019.

  1. Dimlhugion

    Dimlhugion Member

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    @jqob I don't know how targeting priority works for creeps but I would imagine the quills would focus fire to some extent. Absolute worst case scenario, they spread their hits PERFECTLY such that 6 warriors die per volley, but a more realistic example might have only 2 or 3 die per volley.

    This would mean 22 volleys at 1 volley per 1 / .76 = 1.32 seconds, for 22 * 1.32 = 29 seconds of hold time.

    Assuming we up to a Doomsday, that's 2 hits needed per quill, so 24 hits, 1 / .41 = 2.44 * 24 = 59 seconds to clear the wave.

    65 * 1.15 = 75 damage per hit against the doom

    In 29 seconds, Doom attacks 29 / 2.44 = 11 times, so 5 quills will be dead, leaving us with 7 remaining (1 of which only needs 1 hit to finish off).

    2.44 / 1.32 = 1.85

    For every 1 attack Doom makes, 1.85 volleys are returned against it. That ratio equates to 3 volleys per full kill on average.

    First kill only takes 1 hit, so 75 * 7 = 525 damage, so Doom is reduced to 5,350 - 525 = 4,825 health.

    Second kill is 3 volleys received at 6 strength, 4,825 - 75 * 6 * 3 = 3,475

    Third kill is 3 volleys at 5 strength, 3,475 - 75 * 5 * 3 = 2,350

    4th kill, health down to 1,450

    5th kill, 775

    6th kill, 325

    7th kill, 100

    Put another way, Doom + 44 bones should just barely clear the wave most of the time. Doom requires 425 resources, which means our army value is now at 950 + 425 = 1,375 which is still well below recommended hold for 11.

    Obviously this isn't anywhere close to a perfect sim, we're not taking sends into account nor are we taking the damage bone warriors would deal into account nor are we accurately planning out AI targeting etc. But the math shows it is at least theoretically viable to spam T1's for very low value holds, which in my personal opinion is absurd.

    But hey, perhaps I'm wrong. I'd like to be in this case. I don't want this to be the meta.
     
  2. jqob

    jqob Member

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    @Dimlhugion I tested doom + 44 bones and it leaked 50% on wave 11 with no sends. And doom got attacked last, so no - placement wasnt an issue. And the thing is - you cant build 44 bones in one round, thats over 600gold. so you will see your opponent spamming bones on wave 9 already. Easily you will be able to send 240+ send on 11 and destroy him.

    Edit : my test was done on current build. in the next build the bone warriors are gonna be weaker so the result would be even a little worse.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
  3. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    You guys were right that Guardian Angel was too good, and tier 1 spam was OP on late-game waves. In response to feedback and testing, the following changes were made:
    - Guardian Angel nerfed
    - Aqua Spirit nerfed
    - Fire Archer nerf reverted
    - Witch buffed against spam
    - Shaman buff reverted (it’s already being indirectly buffed by wave changes)
    - Waves 5+ buffed
    - Wave 7 fewer Blobs
    - Waves 10+ tuned to be stronger against tier 1 units

    Also added Legend rank, thanks to Curing!

    I spent a lot of time testing and iterating on the gameplay changes this patch, but I'm not a robot, so I'm sure some things won't be balanced. Rest assured that we'll be hotfixing as needed after the patch comes out.

    I encourage everyone to try the patch and give the changes a chance, and if something isn't good, we're not afraid to revert it. That's what a new season is for. Patch is live! :)
     
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  4. MStylo

    MStylo Member

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    This new patch pretty much ruined ranked matches. You are trying way too hard to make it beginner friendly so it's becoming counterproductive. Having either no desciption on mercs or else 60% of them "powerful but lower income" is so dumb. That's a thing a player has to figure out by himself after 20 games. I suggest showing small description along with attack and armor type plus ability name and then ctrl shows dps, health etc.

    Also providing pretty much unlimited sends of the same mercenary just because you want to get rid of some numbers and graphics on screen is too big a sacrifice for it's cost. Heavily changes game all of a sudden getting nothing but mess in return. It feels like you can send army of any size you want for free. Not in a single warcraft 3 map you can buy mercs without seeing a limit available. Get it back to 2 units.

    I greatly suggest reverting the whole supply as it was before. I highly doubt it is being any major burden to understand to any new player since every unit takes exactly one supply and limits are rounded to 20. Surely in an alternate universe there is a more ellegant concept but this one is a huge step backward.

    For new people coming into the game, instead of heavily affecting the gameplay, a big portion of things could be accomplished just by creating a good tutorial.

    Personally I don't like where the value number is being shown. Now the money table is nearly blank while i have to stare at bottom of my screen to look for a little number that blends in to the background to see my value.

    It's great to experiment but it should be done more cautiously and in smaller steps or at least give players a heads-up that you intend to do something big like this. But this has already been said by Bonny and others. A small community holds the game together and it can easily get smaller.

    One thing I always look up for is new content added to the game. Too bad it's becoming a rare occasion again. Love the look and the mechanic of the new unit :).
     
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  5. reW

    reW Member

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    Played 5 games already, but against lower rated people. Feels like snowballing is much easier without supply, because you can spam t1 on bad waves early and you got that extra 50 mythium for money instead of supply.

    Will play more, but atm i heavily dislike the changes.

    Ah, and the value on the bottom left only is confusing.
     
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  6. Raily

    Raily Member

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    You just destroyed the very existance of Aquas and Fire/Rogue Waves.

    I played a few games and I can't recognize them anymore.
    I mean you just litteraly made it just another AOE crap, only it's weaker than the AOE units we already have

    Thanks
     
  7. Barashnukor

    Barashnukor Member

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    I am rly sorry to say, but it is really crap... pls give us back the +3 Gold from the start... so it did destroy so much of my starts --> Proton play / tempest 5 w start and so on...

    Also without supply it is really not funny, u can spam t1 as shit....

    Please Jules and Lisk, give us back the Old patch... PLS!
     
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  8. Troll Eater

    Troll Eater Member

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    #BringOldPatchBack
     
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  9. ryan40k

    ryan40k Member

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    The removal of supply made me so mad that I decided to make a forum post.

    I really don't like the idea of playing without supply and always enjoyed the complexity it ads to the game.

    The new reroll mechanic is completely bonkers and takes a huge part out of the entire strategic aspect ltd2 had to offer.

    If your plan is to go super simple and super noob friendly, which you probably have to if you want to go f2p one day, this is probably the way to go. I'm convinced that you will make quite a lot of old long term players leave though.

    Still looking forward for trying the new patch and best of luck to everyone in the new season!
     
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  10. Raily

    Raily Member

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    Let's just say not all backlash is the community being tied to their old and comfortable ways.

    Some changes are straight up not for the best.
     
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  11. jqob

    jqob Member

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    I bet if you check your statistics you will see that the games are much shorter in this new patch. All waves being buffed and cheap units being nerfed makes the current recommended values inaccurate.

    I also agree that its bad that the value is not shown in the panel anymore as that was where everyone was looking at.

    With the mastermind income removed idk if its just not being used to it or if its generally worse for the game. But I liked having a basic income provided, right now its kinda important to send on wave 2/3 for income.

    Edit: Oh and reduce the mercenary cap from 10 to 6 IMO.

    Edit 2: Giant Snails too op. It is stronger than regular sends and give you full income. Definetly need to be nerfed. If you reduce mercenary cap you can let them be maybe, but right now its insanely overpowered.

    Edit 3: Tempest nerf really screws with it early game. Also Leviathan nerf isnt fun, the hp nerf makes it very hard to play early game.

    Edit 4: Cat is too strong.

    Edit 5: Wileshroom too weak, Canopie slightly too strong.

    Edit 6: Hydra is more OP than ever.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2019
  12. Raily

    Raily Member

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    Merceneray cap from 10 to 6 ? You could send 6 when the Time Limit was a thing.
    I'd rather go back to the Time Cooldown than get a 6 CAP.

    Edit 5: Wileshroom too weak, Canopie slightly too strong.

    Ok now you are just memeing.
     
  13. Lisk

    Lisk Director Staff Member

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    v4.00a-d
    - Fixed various bugs with Lord of Death, Dire Toads, and Guardian Angel

    v4.00e
    - Fixed a bug with the recommended value bar being off if your opponent sent mercenaries just before income
    - Fixed a bug with queuing mercenaries at night (one that you couldn't afford + one that you could afford. Thanks Xyern for the repro!)
     
  14. Yanoa

    Yanoa Member

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    My friends and I like the direction of the patch. Better yet, I'm excited to ask some others to try playing again. I know a lot of us have been playing for years, but the game is complex for newbs. Some changes will definitely bother people, but the game needs new players. I'm OK with a supply cap removal. The reroll change definitely impacted the game a lot more, but I think it could be for the best.
     
  15. Marchombre

    Marchombre Member

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    As I said on the discord, supply removal made the game more casual, which is perfectly fine to me, but can bother competitive-focus players (especially on game sold as a competitive TD).

    Movement speed change was the one I feared the most as past iteration on movement changes were... chaotic. Didn't see too much unexpected beahvior for now.

    Reroll, well, I don't like the idea of counter long saves by rerolling a god-like unit on X wave.
     
  16. Valentin Diekmannshenke

    Valentin Diekmannshenke Member

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    Hey guys, I have to be honest here, but the latest patch ruined LDT for me. First of all the new reroll system ist rubbish, it's not strategic any more, but luck based. I had games that were completely fucked up due to reroll. Games were I couldn't get any proper tanks, nor antler, mudman or king claw. Instead I had two Tier 1 tower and two Tier 2 tower, for wave 14, but no reroll left. Moreover, because I can't choose which ones I want to reroll I have no controll over my strategy nor my set up. In worst cases I can't even use some towers like serpent or Harpy. Therefore, I have useless towers. In addition, reroll als means now that you have to build your good towers before you reroll, because you will lose them anyway.
    Next point: Removing supply cap took out some depths of the game. Why? Because supply cap meant, you can't push things like crazy and you had to chose whether you send or upgr. Now you can send whenever you want and makes it more difficult for certain setups and resends are much stronger. In most cases mass building wasn't good anyway. Now it just leads to pushing workers like crazy or if you are behind, to a snowball that wrecks you.
    Last point: I see where you coming from with removing the timer for mercenaries. Yet, it doesn't work well, because you can now brute people to death. The impact is too strong. Another problem is yet again, specific tactics do not work well any more, people start mass sending like fiends to get through heavy impact set-ups, makes it super easy to break through.
    You should rather work on getting more players to play the game, instead of making it easier, because people won't play it just because it's more beginners friendly. Just look at Dota. Why do people play it, because of the depths of the game, because it's not league of legends and the other way around. But making a mix of both is usually the worst option.
    I mean changes are good and important, especially to keep the game alive, but as others stated already, you can't just do a 180° turn.
     
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  17. andialki

    andialki Member

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    I think that currently wave 7 and wave 10 are a bit overpowered.
    And i am not sure if the 5 x reroll really helps new players, because you have to think about many things early in the game e.g. maybe keep an empty spot for an aura or like Valentin said harpy/serpent problem. Maybe you find a solution to improve the reroll concept a bit and make it less luck-based.
     
  18. Mick

    Mick Member

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    My observations after playing a few games about the 2 main things that are being discussed in the patch so far:

    1. Removal of supply
    The main thing I don't like from this is that T1 units have become much weaker. Going for Pack Rat was something nice before, now you have to think twice about it. Same for pretty much any other T1. Because they had to be weakened in case you would mass them, they have been deprived of their roll as legitimate tower. Now that supply is gone I do notice I liked supply. In general it doesn't require you to be as aware as before, which I think is a shame. All-in-all, for an experienced player like me this change is pretty much only negative.

    2. Re-roll system
    Honestly, I don't feel it's either very bad or good. It just changes the game and the way you play. After a few games in you will look at your roll differently, mainly: what do I want to get out before re-rolling? So your first roll will be picked pretty much for level 1-8. Somewhere between level 6-8 is generally your first re-roll, and you will either pick the things you want before re-rolling, or stay at a roll if you think it will cover your lanes.

    For me personally, I like going with 1 roll and try to cover as much, instead of this cherry-picking way of playing. It definitely requires more skill to do that in a good way than to play the re-roll tactic good. However, I did enjoy this new way of playing. It's something fresh and not horrible in itself. But it's more of a featured game mode than standard mode, in my opinion, because it's more random and less skill-based than the original Mastermind.

    I know Jules thinks this is more skill-based because you can re-roll more and therefore has less chance of uneven rolls. I can follow that logic, but in practice, the skill of picking the right roll and playing it right in Mastermind weighs way more heavy. A good player can easily beat a worse player with the same 10 units, because of placement and choice, whereas he cannot predict what he will have in re-rolls and has to rely on the RNG gods more for that than his skill.
     
  19. Dimlhugion

    Dimlhugion Member

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    I've played a handful of games now, and if I had to TL;DR my experiences into a single sentence I'd say I don't have to think as much anymore while playing:

    1.) Scouting is a lost art now. It can still somewhat help during the first two waves, as you can deduce from the tower(s) and PowerScore how many workers they're opening with, but after that you have to assume they have at least one reroll left at any given time and are going to use it in an attempt to cover their current weaknesses. And with the rolls only being pseudo-random it's a safe bet that they'll get that clutch unit.

    2.) Sending is a lost art now. Since scouting is out the window, the only choice becomes whether to send for eco or up the king for eco. Why bother skipping 6 for a hard 7 send when they can yolo-roll their way into a hold? A bird in hand is worth two in the bush - getting the income so you can out-snowball is almost always the correct choice, or so it seems to me.

    3.) Building is a lost art now. As long as you can afford the key unit/upgrade you'll need for the next wave, and as long as you're not falling behind on eco, there's no longer any reason not to pad your army with fodder units. You don't need to choose between value units vs mass because the secondary restriction - supply - no longer exists. Just get the coverage and pump out workers.

    Make of all that what you will. Personally I think it's a bad direction in which to head, but I also have no sense of how popular the changes really are. I mean, we typically see what, 2k+ players per day? At peak times, upwards of 500 simultaneous logins? That means the 20 or so active forum posters - myself included - are most definitely in the minority. So even if we were all in agreement - which we aren't - about the changes, that doesn't exactly paint the whole picture.

    I have my doubts regarding any long-term positive outcome though. Make something that even a fool can use, and only a fool will want to use it. A fool and his money are soon parted, to be sure, but if you're looking for staying power in lieu of a quick cash grab, this is the wrong playstyle to be pursuing. We need more thoughtful decision making, not less.
     
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  20. WhigBullMoose

    WhigBullMoose Member

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    The changes are entirely unbalanced. The new spells are unbalanced, the fact you can just spam sends now is unbalanced, especially with Giant Snail, the re-roll completely changes the game and removes strategic sending on early waves especially (at least make it cost something), the creditor spell is ridiculously unfair and entirely unbalanced in creating a competitive game--rich get richer is not a way to balance. I just feel like this entire update was not well planned or thought out at all and I'm extremely disappointed. Iam probably going to stop playing until these issues are fixed. I'm not the best player but when I suck I like to know it's because I fucked up, not because 10 giant snails are coming on 11 or because the other team was already ahead and didn't build 2 rounds so they could milk creditor.