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v4.00: Season 4

Discussion in 'Patch Notes' started by Jules, Jun 21, 2019.

  1. basti

    basti Member

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    Hey guys,

    just a short summary about my thoughts about the new patch. I concentrate about the supply change and what follows of that, cause i don´t wanna type hours like bonny ;).

    First of all i dont like the new supply change and the following T1 debuff.
    For sure you have to do something about the unit spamming, but the really heavy T1 makes the units useless in early game. You normaly didn´t need supply before, lets say, wave 5/6. So the "no supply cap" doesn´t affect till here, what means, you have only a hard disadvantage of that. The missing +3 income boost makes it harder in early game as well, cause you miss some gold and some starts just won´t work anymore.

    So, i try now, to build so less T1s as possible, cause the gold/power ratio is really bad. Cause of the new reroll mechanic, the really late game units doenst matter a lot in the first roll. I think thats not the sense of a T1 unit. In my feeling you need T1 for the early game, cause you have less gold and have to focus on cheaper units. Now its kinda the opposit. It feels like that im shifting kinda every wave a bit what is really hard to handle for new players. And that just to avoid building T1s.

    In late game you can still spam the T1´s, cause 1 hit overkill, is overkill, it doesn´t matter how much live one T1 have here.

    One more edit. The "flame/criticism" about some other changes are okay but sometimes i dont share em or i dont see em that critical. Unbalanced king spells - things like that are easy to balance after some patches, cause you just have to change some gold gain, +% lifeleech and so on. But i think the removing of the supply cap with all the follow ups, like more att speed for all mid/late waves are and what i wrote with the roles and when are you likely to build T1s are very hard to handle. Aura merchs (pack, mole, hermit) are kinda a must of every wave, cause they do so much more than the other merchs as a reason of the buffs to the wave strength.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2019
  2. Themryon

    Themryon Member

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    Ok here are the thoughts of a low elo player (=me) that is no new player:

    TLDR; i don't mind the changes, but i don't see a huge benefit in them either.

    Supply removal is good, less 'stress' in that regard. Before, I also always forget to take into account that the other players have x mythium less due to supply, so that is also one thing i don't need to think about.
    Overall, for me it feels better without supply. (Although the "farm-fucked" stress was something fun before)
    Disclaimer: I don't have a clue what the impact is of T1 spam, i didnt see it yet (only once in classic), and i'm not inclined to do that myself.

    Mercenary cap removed: So i definitely agree with the removal of the '2'-numbers on the mercenaries. I don't see a huge benefit of having them there and removing them 'cleans' the HUD.
    BUT, i don't agree with the thoughts about the stock timers.
    I don't have a problem tracking stock timers, i see some fun factor in them by thinking: "will it be available again in time, come ooooon".
    Removing the stock timers does open up possibilities, but that makes it also harder for low elo.
    You could just keep the stock timers if you want the same functionality before (speed them up a bit maybe to account for the loss of the 2-cap) and still have a cleaner hud.
    Overall, I don't have a problem with the change and it does feel more intuitif.

    Changed reroll:
    I don't have a problem with the new reroll, but it changes the game completely (and honestly makes it harder I think). It makes it harder because you have to keep spaces open for your yet-to-come auras. You can't rely anymore on oh he has those units, let's send that. (Ok he is not going to sell his existing units, so it's not entirely true, but still).

    More importantly: i wanted once to make one worker and i accidentally hit the reroll. I don't know if i'm alone in that, but that's a big deal. I'm not sure if a warning is necessary or not (i don't like the mega message in your face when the game asks permission to undeploy a unit)
    Also i don't like that the roll is completely random, in the sense that you can get the same units as you just had. I would prefer to have a random roll but excluding your current units.
    edit: it seems that the roll is not random, i did not read it good first, but still i don't want to see the same units again.
    Overall, I don't minde the change (i seldom used the previous reroll anyway), BUT it doés change the game completely imho.


    PS: as i said in another thread before, if you really want to help new players, i think the game needs to help you in the HUD, (e.g. when you tend to buy a unit there is "bonus next wave" or "weak". That is helpfull i feel). A lot can be cleaned, simplified and better expressed imho.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2019
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  3. Dimlhugion

    Dimlhugion Member

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    Basically it has to do with overkill and how efficient that can be in terms of lowering your army hold value.

    Let's say you have a unit that has 1 health. It's going to die in one hit. From anything. Wave 1 crab, wave 20 boss, merc snail, all irrelevant in terms of how much damage they do. One hit, one dead unit. How much gold do you think this unit should cost? 10? 15? Probably not in the hundreds, right? I mean, how much value can you really put on something that dies in one hit?

    Let's then say you also have a unit that has 9,001 health. You literally would have to do over 9,000 damage in a single blow to one-shot it. Nothing in the game deals that much damage except possibly wave 21, and even then it would take several rounds of scaled buffing. How much gold should THIS unit cost? Probably the opposite of the 1 health one, yea? 500 gold? 600?

    Now let's say you have a wave consisting of 1 enemy that does 3,000 damage per hit, one hit per second, but you get no sends with it. You are tasked with trying to tank this enemy for 30 seconds or more AND you only have 5,000 gold to spend. The question is, which unit do you prefer to build?

    Counter-intuitive though it may seem at first glance, you actually want to build the 1-health unit.

    The 9,001 health unit can take 4 hits before it dies, which equates to 4 seconds of hold time. That means you'd need to build at least 8 of them to hold out for 30+ seconds. 8 * 500 = 4,000 gold, only leaving you with 1,000 to spend on workers. That's 20 workers tops you can afford. If you build 31 of the 1-health units though, you hold out for 30+ seconds at a cost of only 31 * 15 = 465 gold. That gives you 4,535 free gold, with which you can buy 90 workers.

    Hold time same, but 90 workers > 20 workers any day of the week.

    So now the question becomes: how do you balance the game such that massing T1 isn't the only viable strategy?

    ONE route you could go involves upping the amount of enemies attacking at the same time (see: wave 7 blobs), upping their attack speed (wave 10), nerfing T1's to the ground in other areas (such as damage), or some combination thereof. A more simple route though would be to have a supply cap with scaling upgrade costs. Limit the player to initially only having 15 units at a time, and suddenly they can't afford to mass in a very literal way; 15 chibi units only holds that 3k dps enemy for 15 seconds, AND you wouldn't have any supply left to push workers either. So NOW it flips the tables back into the favor of the 9,001 health unit. 8 of those will hold twice as long and give you extra supply to push workers.

    Then all you have to do is put a price point on the beefy unit so that you can't build it wave 1, and you're golden. Simple, eh?
     
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  4. HomeSnakes

    HomeSnakes Member

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    Hello All,

    I just wanted to echo some of the concerns with the new patch, as a lot of great points have been made thus far.

    No Supply: I like the new patch's stress on what seems "intuitive" to new players and think this, at least as a guiding principle, should continue (within reason). So, while there are some issues with spamming mercs and rebalancing T1 that needed to be worked out, I ultimately think the flow of the game is smoother without supply to worry about.

    I'm also +1 for keeping a kind of stock timer for merc sending and reducing the cap down from 10. Variety and strategy in merc sending > button mashing/spamming. Maybe upping the merc cap from 2 was all that was needed?

    New Reroll: I agree that strategy is now practically gone (scouting, anticipating, long-term defense planning, which was fun for me) but so is the creativity of choosing from a wider range of towers. The tower-selection algorithm for the roll system is still very limited; Wileshroom STILL comes up as a "magic damage" unit and in one game I had to reroll twice to get a real magic dmg unit before wave 11. In other instances, I keep getting the very complicated-to-use Hydra egg as the only Impact dmg or Natural armor tank in a roll. Choosing from 10 units at the start means I can build around what I know how to use and take calculated risks, not be locked out of crucial damage types/armors roll after roll because, say, the only arcane armor units that come up are T1 units when its the night before wave 14. I think one 10 unit reroll should be available for those who need to get out of a rut (maybe one-time, universally available at wave 10, not as a spell. Maybe turn the former spell into a one time ability in the HUD; it worked well).

    Some kind of starting income will also help new players who are trying to figure so much out so quickly that they sit there for 6 waves without a single send, which can be crippling to your early game if you otherwise don't know what you're doing.

    Ultimately, I don't think these very detailed, almost academic tweaks in gameplay are the key to attracting and keeping new players (if that's the intended goal of patches like this one) even if they are important to the layered quality of the game. Instead of tweaking the gameplay, I agree with Themryon that intuitively communicating the system you DO have in place in the game environment is key, and that has definitely gotten better over time.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2019
  5. Valentin Diekmannshenke

    Valentin Diekmannshenke Member

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    Second post here to share more thoughts: The reroll system was definitely a wrong choice. I noticed that after I played another couple of games. As I said before it's heavily based on rng that you could play poker with similar results. In a further analysis I noticed that before the new reroll there were weaknesses. I'd say 8/10 games had been played with a non-perfect setup. Now you never know if your enemy has any weaknesses, that makes the sending somewhat uselss. It's not like "oh a sandbadger after 6, dammit" any more, it's more like "I got the perfect tower for every wave" Sandbadger or cannopie for 7 and 8 / 9(not the best here, but strong enough) I get my magic dmg for 5 and 6, Pyro can't leak any more before 6 It's 100% safe bet. If I need something for 10 I'll definitely get Berserker or Coiler or Nightmare. For 11 I go Mudman/Golem. It comes with the risk of losing useful towers, but usually you don't need to worry about leaks in early game. However, late game can be completely fucked up, because the last reroll determines whether you can win the game or not, unless you got perfect rolls before. I had games that went super smooth by wave 13. Then I rerolled last time, because I needed at least something for 14 and 15, but got a lot of t1- t3 towers which didn't help me at all. I managed to survive, because I got no sends, but got worse and worse due to my towers and died 16. I need t4-t6 towers in late not a mass of t1 towers, especially meele who just get wrecked by cent or deal absolutely zero dmg when mole is send. Or to make it even worse: Kraken + Mole + Hermit. Have fun with your t1 and t2 towers.
    In addition, the new reroll forces you to use it, because rng is king here. If you don't reroll, you can't be as strong as others, because they are much more versatile, although you might have already pretty good towers. Yet, what happens if I reroll with already a really good setup? It's much more likely to get crappy towers, just for the sake to get another sandbadger, antler or whatsoever.

    As a conlcusion for reroll: I lost my games always in late game due to a bad reroll/reroll or didn't manage to make enemies leak due to strong rerolls.
     
  6. Themryon

    Themryon Member

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    You probably are a much bettzr player than i, but your story sounds a lot like you rerolled too much early on. Reroll now is like a limited resource. If you use it too early you f* yourself over.

    I would use my second to last reroll for late game and if that is worthless i still have the last one as backup, but if you use your last one for 13 then it seems to me your own fault.
     
  7. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    v4.00f Patch Notes

    We’re still collecting feedback and evaluating things to see if any changes are needed. For now, just a small balance and bug fix patch.

    Legion Spells

    Embargo.png
    Embargo green_arrow.png
    - Gold and mythium gain: 80 -> 85

    PawnShop.png
    Pawn Shop green_arrow.png
    - Gold gain: 50 -> 70

    4v4 Dual Building / Cross green_arrow.png
    - Attack speed bonus: 13% -> 10%

    Fighters

    RogueWave.png
    Rogue Wave green_arrow.png
    - Damage: 45 -> 48

    Now no longer leaves wave 3 with a sliver of health!

    FireElemental.png
    Fire Elemental green_arrow.png
    - Combustion: Damage: 30 -> 35

    Nekomata.png
    Nekomata red_arrow.png
    - Attack speed: 1 -> 0.98

    Mercenaries
    - Mercenary cap: 10 -> 8
    - Fixed a bug where you could hire 1 extra mercenary on the same wave

    Waves

    Kobra.png
    (8) Kobras green_arrow.png
    - Attack speed: 1.08 -> 1.1

    Carapace.png
    (9) Carapaces red_arrow.png
    - Health: 760 -> 750

    QuillShooter.png
    (11) Quill Shooters red_arrow.png
    - Health: 1120 -> 1100

    Mantis.png
    (12) Mantises green_arrow.png
    - Attack speed: 1.1 -> 1.11

    KillerSlug.png
    (14) Killer Slugs red_arrow.png
    - Health: 2070 -> 2050

    Quadrapus.png
    (15) Quadrapuses green_arrow.png
    - Attack speed: 1.23 -> 1.25
     
  8. Cornep

    Cornep Member

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    4v4 Dual Building / Cross
    - Attack speed bonus: 13% -> 10%

    YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
     
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  9. Ceeboz

    Ceeboz Member

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    I'm not the biggest fan of season 4, but I adapting to it. But the main reason I'm writing this is because I want to say out to you guys that i HATE the New re-roll system. Change it back to the original mastermind With +3 and decrease gold With reroll………………………...
     
  10. Jean Paul Michel

    Jean Paul Michel Member

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    Hey guys ! So, now I've played it for a few games, here are my personal feedbacks :

    So, worst things first : the new roll system. I'm really, really not for it. I really liked the way it was done before tbh. The fact of picking your roll w1 and not being able to change it added a really deep strategic layer to the game imo. Anyway, I didn't read all the posts in here but I guess a lot of people already explained that so I won't repeat what has already been told.

    I may not have played enough yet to get reckt by some spam abuser strategy, but the removal of the merc cap seems more than legit to me.

    The supply... is debatable. I loved it because for 10 years or idk I've been playing LTD it's always been there. It added some interesting tactics that had been reviewed by the other players above.
    Now, I understand you have to get new players and keep them. I don't have stats but I feel like less players are online these days, so that sounds like a legit decision to me, in a way.
    BUT. This broke the rythm of the game imo. You usually don't get your supply before let's say wave 7 (I think it's an average). So, until wave 7, you have -2 or -3 income than before, and your T1s and T2s are way worse than before. In other words, I feel like you're negating 1 to 2 workers to every player until wave 7. And imo the fact of not spending 50 myth at this wave really doesn't counter the heavy early nerf. The games I played, I felt like this was somehow slower and more boring. But again, only my opinion base on 10 or 15 games. I feel like the counterbalance of supply should appear in early mid game instead of early early game.
    So, I understand why you would like to remove the supply, but I really feel like new T1s and T2s are way too nerfed.
    I get that you smh wanted to replace the HUD button of supply by something else and I don't feel like reroll has its place here. Maybe put some other caps in here, like an Income or a Mythium cap (like a Myth storage). Like, you can't get past 100 income, or stock more than 150 myth until you up your "supply". Even absolutely nothing could be a solution actually.

    To sum up, I'd personally say come back to the old MM system which was amazingly good comparing to classic LTD reroll system imo. And supply removal could be deleted, but we'd need to see how it goes with some balancing done, because atm it feels really meh.

    Keep the work up tho, that's really pleasant to see you guys are investing yourself that much to improve the game with new ideas and mechanics. But that can't work everytime eheh. Hope you guys will consider all the feedbacks.
    I just hope that in 5 years I won't be waiting for the release of "Legion TD 2 Classic" because the game will have become too casual, if you know what I mean :p
     
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  11. cartman

    cartman Member

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    Hi guys, the possibility to reroll 5 times is way too much, also i would recommed to only allow it until wave 2-3 or something like that, so new players still can reroll if the started with a bad roll, in case you invented it to make it easier for new players.
     
  12. ThiagoLA92

    ThiagoLA92 Member

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    @Jules When should i gain the gold from

    [​IMG]
    Pawn Shop

    I doesn't see my gold increase when i choose the spell
     
  13. Lisk

    Lisk Director Staff Member

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    Small v4.00g bug-fix patch (will be live in a few minutes)

    - Fixed a bug where Pawn Shop didn't give gold
    - Fixed a bug with Lioness's Dominion not triggering with a fully stacked Nekomata
     
  14. sT.Own3d

    sT.Own3d Member

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    Hello guys,
    this patch really triggers me alot.
    the removed supply is ok since u can easy counter massed tower by sending witch mole hermit, but what about early game?
    how am i supposed to counter tower massing in earlygame?

    Im finally getting used to the new rerollsystem. I think it makes the game easier for new players.
    BUT WHY ON EARTH IS THERE NO "are u sure u want to reroll" question???????
    i accedantly clicked reroll because its right next to the worker button. PLS ADD ONE!

    OKOK and why the fukk do i (lvl 20) get matched with lvl 3 dudes?
    Whats the point? how can i be able to win a game with a dude that doesnt even understand
    attack and defense types. and workers the round when doesnt get sends early game.

    I have no problem to teach other guys how to do better, but most of the time they do whatever
    they want and just ignore pings and tips.

    I would be ok with waiting longer for a game when its more balanced, but matchmaking now is cancer.

    PLS fix matchmaking
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
  15. Dimlhugion

    Dimlhugion Member

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    Matchmaking is a self-fulfilling doomsday prophecy. So once upon a time, we would have upwards of 500 people on at once during peak times. We also have four main categories to divide those people into - ranked, unranked, custom, and single player.

    So that means 125 players per mode, if all 4 were evenly populated. That means at most 15 games of classic can be loaded up concurrently, with 5 players sitting in the queue waiting for one of those games to end.

    Of those 120 players playing classic games, I would argue at least half of them are of "average or lower" ELO. That is, after all, how the system operates. So that's 60 people playing at 1200 or less, and of the remaining 60 I would again argue that half are "mid-range" players playing at 1201 - 1600 or so. Only a quarter of the total classic players are at "high" ELO's.

    Assuming you are one of the 30 playing at high-level, that gives you a (1 - (90/119 * 90/118 * 90/117)) * 100 = 55.63% chance of getting matched up with at least one other high ELO player on your team.

    So just about every other game, you have nothing but average or worse team mates.

    This causes frustration, which causes people to stop playing, and suddenly we have only 200ish people on at once during peak. Split that up into 4 and we get 50 per mode, which translates into only 6 games active with 2 players sitting out.

    48 people in classic games, of which only 1/4 are High Elo, means your odds of getting matched up with at least one other peer is now sitting at (1 - (36/47 * 36/46 * 36/45)) * 100 = 52.04%

    But there's a BIG problem with all this math. We are assuming that when the playerbase drops from 500 to 200 that the losses will come evenly across all ELO's. That is not the case. Statistically speaking, average-ELO's will grow in numbers faster than low or high ELO's, which means a centrist trend is more accurate. It's far more likely that when we lose 300 players, most of them come from the two ends of the spectrum (new players dropping out of frustration, veterans dropping out of declining interest, etc).

    The TL;DR to all of this is that even in a best-case scenario, where player drops happen evenly, you still see a nontrivial decline in probability of being matched up with people of equal or greater skill. In a realistic scenario, you see an almost exponential drop in probability. This in turn leads to further disappointment which means MORE drops, thus perpetuating the cycle.

    Adding new players to the game doesn't immediately alleviate this, as they still start at "average" ELO and must go through the learning process (tutorial, classic) before going through a sorting process (winning/losing games until a trend can be established) to determine their actual skill level.

    In short, it's not really a problem they can "just fix." We need to grow AND retain the playerbase, and that doesn't happen overnight.
     
  16. bidza1

    bidza1 Member

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    Since i said i will test it and give it a reasonable feedback, even though i did not like the changes on paper heres my response:

    First things first: Creditor (the 40% gold spell) feels way too strong for me, in games where you are ahead and there is no offensive spell with it, it just gives you the chance to cash in enormous amounts of cash, like 500 gold, which is beyond broken; but as I said a nerf would be an offensive spell that is linked with it (Pta, Overwork, etc.) so you really have to RISK something and not just shift the worker gold and build workers after 13 for that 500 gold

    Gameplay:
    Gameplay is fun. I have to admit, its even a bit more fun than it was before, you just jump into a game and enjoy playing, everything can happen, you pick an early roll and keep running. I like playing, its nice to relax, just play a game and have fun.
    This is the best thing with this patch and also the biggest downside. I do not play competitive anymore. I just play casual one or two games before jumping into another game because legion does not keep me playing. I stopped communicating, FOR ME (!) the competitive feeling is way lower than it is before, because of the randomness, you can have an enemy with stupid units for 10, then he rerolls 4 times, gets berserk, builds one and holds, so why do i bother communicate and save and tell myself "ill starve myself for him getting down even more", because he can just reroll and get perfect units which otherwise wouldve been hard to hide till later waves.
    I like the changes in a way and i hate it in another, it shiftes my attention from "lets play legion today (some hours)" to casual "one game and then back to CS". If this is your way, I will respect that, but in my opinion this is not worth the 20Dollars anymore for NEW players, since its just a game to fill the time until teammates are back (if you go free-to-play, this could work).

    TL;DR: Game is fun! But its casual, not competitive. If the devs want it that way, its fine, but i start playing single games and not hours of climbing sessions, which totally changes my way i deal with this game. Also Creditor is broken :D

    Still i congratulate you guys on trying this change, getting a lot of negative feedback but trying something new! As always: Keep your work going, a 20$ game with 1k+ hours is rarely seen i guess, so thanks for your work!
     
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  17. Kim Andersen

    Kim Andersen Member

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    So when can we expect the reroll to be removed?
    I loved this game, and you ruined it with the x6 reroll! One of the best things about the game was the start, where you had to plan your build/choice of units and look for synergies. You completely removed that part. There is no way to tell what you will get later in the game, and whether you should position units for damage aura, defence aura, mana aura, split and so on...
    If you absolutly wanna introduce some reroll, try starting out with the ability to just reroll maybe a single unit. Perhaps this could be done for an increasing cost, say 15, 30, 45, 60.... gold/reroll?? That way the initial choice of units would still have impact, but you would not be completely screwed for missing maybe an arcane tank....
    I dont even feel like playing the game anymore, and I loved it before. :(
    Besides from that, I like that you are being experimental about the game, but imo this change was a failure, and thats okay, as long as you undo it.
    Please change it back! :)

    Best regards
    Kim Andersen
     
  18. sT.Own3d

    sT.Own3d Member

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    @Mr Andersen: Even the Chosen One have the same opinion :eek: