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Warcraft III Reforged

Discussion in 'Off-topic Discussion' started by s0n0fagun, Feb 1, 2019.

  1. s0n0fagun

    s0n0fagun Member

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    @Roshkatul I see we share the same concerns for TD2. But is there really anything Auto Attack Games can do to prevent a collapse, besides developing the game faster?
     
  2. Roshkatul

    Roshkatul Member

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    Well... If you can't compete content-wise, the second best thing is to compete value-wise. Offer something worse than reforged, but for a better price to make it worth it.
    But I guess going F2P is not possible, and releasing faster content doesn't seem possible either. So I have no idea, they are in a deep hole.
     
  3. s0n0fagun

    s0n0fagun Member

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    And is in some way deviating from the original concept perhaps an option? Or at least make distinctive elements in the game.
     
  4. Seraphin

    Seraphin Member

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    It is not like legion. You don't need to spend only 3h to understand how it works etc... XD

    I agree as a player I don't care too. But personally, I know it will be usefull for the future ;)

    It's your opinion. I just see you think you know all about how to develop and particularly how much time it takes to develop something.
    Do it yourself and show us how it is easy to create a quality unit and integrate it into the game.
    About what I read, you just show me you under estimate software developer work...like a lot of people.

    Tell me in which way LoL and Dota 2 is more complicated to balance than Legion TD 2. Again, you show me that you don't really understand the job behind the scene. We saw that it was also hard to balance Legion TD 2 (remember about Pilgrims).

    Let's admit you're right. First of all, we have to wait wc3 reforget goes out. Let's say we can get it in April. Now, take into consideration it is probable someone takes let's say 2 months to get enough help and learn how to use tools in wc3 (and I'm optimistic). 2 months more to develop some really interesting content. So basically, AutoAttack has more than 6 months to react. That's really enough. And anyways, I'm pretty sure I underestimate the time needed for LEgion TD.
    Also, as Jules said, it is anyways a good way to attract new player on Legion TD 2 after this ;)
     
  5. Roshkatul

    Roshkatul Member

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    I don't even know why I'm answering you at this point, but whatever. I see that out of the 5-6 points you made, you only have 3 left to defend, so I might as well debunk those as well.

    I never said that I underestimate how long it takes to develop a software, but this ISN'T the point of this discussion. It is about the pace at which LTD2 is developing in comparison to HOW FAST a custom map in an ALREADY MADE GAME can be developed. Are you serious at this point? Are you really not understanding this?

    What? Maybe the balancing is different, but you ignored my other point. In a game like DotA or LoL you have to create a champion UNIQUE FROM 100 OTHER CHAMPIONS with abilities UNIQUE FROM 500 OTHER ABILITIES. That's why it is so hard. It's hard to create new champions and heroes because THERE ARE ALREADY SO MANY existing ones, since the game is a finished product. It's not hard to create ability and stat concepts for Legion TD, there are literally hundreds of ideas in the design room, which will never see the light of day because of slow development. Issue which won't exist in a custom map.

    Legion TD would also be harder to balance if there were 100 other units. The fact that balancing 1 single unit takes so long right now (usually a few months) is hilarious.

    So we might get nomad done and an announcement for another legion, at the current pace.


    Yeah, maybe curiosity for legion td2. Which will get thrown out of the window when they'll see the price tag and after they realize they already have a just as good if not even better version of legion td already bought, in the form of WC3 reforged.

    L.E. I just saw that you considered that you need 2 months to learn a custom game editor. Ok, you're the one clueless here. It takes 1-2 weeks.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
  6. Mick

    Mick Member

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    2 months for making a new good ltd2? How about 0 days? Wc3 Reforged will be compatible with TFT, meaning all the custom games can immediately be played on wc3 reforged. The updates may take a little bit, but I expect them to be there within the first few days, since many custom game devs are still active, and only will need to get familiar with more options in the editor.

    Then, let's be real, if LTD2 was a custom game in wc3, it would be okay to play, but not in the top. A few games that I rank higher: DotA, LTD Mega, Hellhalt TD, Castle Fight, YouTD, BShips Crossfire, Footmen Frenzy, Uther Party. Then there are those many fun games to play once in a while, like the RPGs, Angel Arena's, 'Are you a lucker?', Civ wars, Survival Chaos. Heck, you could even play the campaign or the main game every once in a while. There are so many great custom games that can be developed and be popular again. Just for the TDs I am really looking forward to playing new Green TD, Gem TD, Artifact TD, Element TD, YouTD, Mauls, Burbenog TD, and I'm probably even missing some. The point is: there are many things to do on wc3 which are similar or better than in LTD2.

    The unique selling point of LTD2 was the graphics and more possibilities in developing, which will dissappear, probably the graphics will even look better at wc3 reforged.

    But the MAIN thing which will make Reforged better is that people can develop the game/make their own versions. There will not only be many different games, but LTD Mega can be developed to suit many people's preferences. Like HellHalt TD, Legion TD Mega, Legion TD Mega with heroes, developed from Lisk's version, which are all better depending on your preferences, this will happen again. Spin-offs of Legion TD will be made, with all some different and unique angles, which won't make you play the same version every time, but you can mix things up. (I really liked the LTD Mega version with Merc for example, would love to see that coming back in a balanced way)

    The thing that's left for this game, is in my opinion, that it is an indie game that is a tribute to one of the great wc3 mods, meant as a fun little project to honor the genre. I don't think there is any chance of any real competition or a huge success story for the game.
     
  7. Bluejin

    Bluejin Member

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    @Seraphin I'm with Rosh on this one. Also your point on LoL is complete bullshit. During the first 4 years, they released about two to three new champs per month. Because Riot knew, contrary to some other studios, they need lots of new content to keep players invested until they reach a point where the game is diverse enough.

    I haven't played since King Upgrades since it was such a disappointment, but if someone makes a good LTD on WC3R, I'll probably play it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
  8. Seraphin

    Seraphin Member

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    I surrender this debate XD. Too hard to explain my opinion and to convince you haha.

    Dunno if I'm wrong about tools available in wc3 custom map editor. I would love to have a opinion about someone who have already used it. Sorry Rosh but I cannot trust your opinion about it since you didn't do anything concerning development.
    However, I have to admit I was wrong concerning balancing. ;)

    Anyways, still think AutoAttack should not be afraid about this wc3 reforged.
     
  9. Roshkatul

    Roshkatul Member

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    Creating a freaking custom game in a fully fledged game with a fully fledged game editor IS NOT THE SAME AS SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT.......................................................................... That's what you can't understand for some reason.. oh well..
     
  10. s0n0fagun

    s0n0fagun Member

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    I think it would be a bad thing if they woudnt worry about it. That'd be just plain ignorant. Blizzard has an insanely big community of players and fans that will get back to the game in a blink of an eye. Besides, I think there is a reason that the developers havent replied here yet.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
  11. Marchombre

    Marchombre Member

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    Well, @Seraphin the thing is, the war3 editor isn't that hard to use.

    Much easier than coding. So you can do a lot of things quickly. Then, complexe stuff can be done coding stuff or using more advanced tools.

    But don't forget that people already know how to use war3 editor.
    There will probably have minor changes with war3 reforged, but the core will remain. I guess the active community will need 1 week max to adapt to those, unless Blizzard screwed up while upgrading editor.
     
  12. Seraphin

    Seraphin Member

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    Well maybe you're right. However, I'm more afraid for Legion TD 2 because of Dota Auto Chess to be honest...
     
  13. SirCloud

    SirCloud Member

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    Auto Chess is only one nail, reforged will be the final one.
     
  14. GvR Mr Mister

    GvR Mr Mister Member

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    I spent about 500 hours in the wc3 map editor, most of the time i only used the editor itself without jass etc. The implementation of a new legion would not take much time, it can be done in few hours. But the creation aka stat allocation/creating a model/lore can take days. Once its implemented (still not released) it needs testing to bugfix/balance it. After this you can realese and rebalance it depending on player feedback/statistics.

    The wc3 map editor has a pretty easy to understand user interface that offers many modules like the "trigger-editor" or "object-editor" to create or copy&paste content. You dont have to know any programming language to use it.
    BUT more complex maps like the newer ltd1 need more than this to be edited. Its written in jass and maybe even more external thing i dont know about (i did not edit @brouder's version yet, maybe you can ask him about more details). Also most map files are protected against read/write, so if the mapmaker is inactive its hard to edit such maps.

    But to be honest i think blizzard will fuck up 99% of custom maps at wc3r realese.
     
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  15. s0n0fagun

    s0n0fagun Member

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    In my opinion Dota Auto Chess can be considered a competitor, sure, but it doesnt come close to Legion expierencewise
     
  16. von Oberstain

    von Oberstain Member

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    Custom maps can't be patented, though Blizzard once bought the name DOTA from author (well, IceFrog, not original one) - this is the only example that I'm aware of.

    Lisk left the open code for further modding when he stopped active development of 1.6b. Of course, the 'gentlemen code' should be honoured - not to present yourself as an author, not to make a commercial product, etc (*NOT* stated by Lisk, but I'd say something like that is normal).

    From there, a few arcs continue - X3, MEGA, eGze.

    Original X3 (being ridiculously easy to made) has no known author, and there are possibly many.

    MEGA was created by HuanAK, as you probably know, and code left EXCLUSIVELY to Saucer to change.

    eGze is the original author of 2.x versions arc, which is X3 but with new races and so on. There was some scandal where he was accused as a cheater - but it's TOTALLY untrue, I was working with him at that time - whole 'sin' was that he forgot to disable -test trigger which is zero as a cheat, because everyone would notice it being used.

    Yes, I mentioned myself working with eGze, who mysteriously disappeared for a while, then returned and we had exchanged perhaps few mails and... He lost his code, and I lost it too.

    In the meantime, I continued to work on UE (Unofficial Expansion), later renamed Pro. It's one of 2 'strict' LTD (say 'X1') successors, with two friends. We also made Revo arc, which was left unfinished. Both being based on the same code, they include 14 races, new modes and whatnot (Pro balance was kinda perfect, because I am kinda perfectionist on that matter; Revo was not, because it was work in progress).

    Other X1 arc is 1.7, made by Spoooocky (may spelled wrongly), based on clean 1.5b code, having a new races and improvement. It's still active.

    Our development is being stopped in 2013., we kinda lost interest during the 'bot rule' on bnet - our bot was bad, we had troubles with hosting, also lots on personal lives.

    Pro, Revo and 1.7 can be downloaded from makemehost.com

    That concludes most important Legion arcs, there is perhaps worth mentioning HELL version which may or may not be made by eGze.

    Rest is pure silliness, stuff like -X20 and -X100.

    I may be ready to continue 'Pro' arc, team up with someone, or negotiate to give the code to someone, with 'patent' to balance. I'll post invitation in the separate post.
     
  17. GvR Mr Mister

    GvR Mr Mister Member

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    its made by hellraiser iirc
     
  18. von Oberstain

    von Oberstain Member

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    Well, maybe they're the same person. I have a reason to believe so - something that was characteristic in his late work, where I participated - stuff for his never-published last version. Then again, it's just a presumption...

    I haven't really talked to him, so I can't claim anything.

    It would be nice if he came back to mapmaking, he is a good person and a friend, and it was a shame what 'community' did to him on forums...
     
  19. MStylo

    MStylo Member

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    Just about blizzcon begins you are gonna hit 100k players. Coincidence or illumiati? :D