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wave 10

Discussion in 'Balance Discussion' started by Seraphon, May 15, 2018.

  1. Seraphon

    Seraphon Member

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    Hello guys,

    I would like to talk today about wave 10. I really think this wave limits too much strategy because of his strengh.
    I tried to analyze this a bit.

    I explained in a previous thread that I thought wave 8 was more or less useless. So at the moment people usually send 6 or 7 before all. Then you have the opportunity to send 9, 10 or 11.
    11 is at the moment a bit hard because of Legion spell. Especially if Allowance, Reroll, Loan or the new spell are available because they give you some more gold. Also, it means that you don't have a lot of income for wave 9 and 10 usually. So if you don't want to leak hard 10, you won't have a lot of workers most of time.
    So, people will often send 9 or 10. 9 could be really interesting if you think you will be able to make your opponent leak very hard (at least 50% of the wave) and if you're sure you will hold wave 10.
    Now, if your opponent send 10, and does not leak enough wave 9, you will probably be destroyed 10 just because he could get more mythium to send.
    Also, it is not particularly interesting if both people of the team leak wave 10 because of the dmg dealt on the king.

    So finally, at the moment you don't want to send 10 only if you are able to make your opponent leak enough wave 9 AND you're able to win the game on 12-13.

    It is really hard to explain well why 10 is just completely op and limits a lot strategy. But I think if you have 3 mobs rather than only 1 for example, wave 10 would not be anymore a must send or have a very good build for 10.

    I really hope you will change a bit this wave!!

    Thanks you in advance for your answer and your reaction
     
  2. Arioni

    Arioni Member

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    Make the wave 10 boss use the pillage system. For each % of health you hit him for, you gain 1 gold (if the boss is healed up with Hermit it obviously doesn't count for more gold). Then have the actual kill give rest of the gold.
    Wave 10's very much an all-or-nothing wave right now. If you have a bad build for other waves, e.g 9, you'll still only leak a *part* of the wave, not the entire wave. It should be the same for 10.
     
  3. Nacccho

    Nacccho Member

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    In terms of Strenght, is fine as it is honestly.
    Because 12 and 13 are also strong, sometimes not sending 10 is game winning, allowing you to get cent 12 or shaman++ on 13.
    Thing is, the facilitators for 10 were nerfed(rangers and greendevil), and the power houses against 10 are meelee serker, deepcoiler, so they really rely on RNG to not get focused after your tank dies. But spamming t1s are super effective there.

    When it comes to wave 8 i kind of agree, i would change the amor type of 8 to natural, so peewees and aquas aren't superb both 7 and 8, and maybe also buff their damage.
     
  4. Seraphon

    Seraphon Member

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    You can spam T1 unit for wave 10 indeed. But you still have RNG about focused. I mean, you can have double berserker and still leak hard wave 10 if your berserker are focused more or less first and don't leak at all with only one berserker just because he is focused in last.
    Akitos explained it in another thread, at the moment, there is too much RNG on this wave and it is too much binary (all or nothing).
    And even if your opponent is saving for 12 or 13 for example, you can still count on the gold that you get from their boss leak + often spell gold.
    At the moment, the only reason you don't want to send 10 is if you think you can one shot your opponent on wave 12-13. And this is really risky.
     
  5. MonaldRektDonald

    MonaldRektDonald Member

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    I think w10 should be strong, its a boss and it should feel like that.
    But.. since melee mercs are stronger than ranged especially if they get focused a bit(but won't die), it is really hard to hold 10 if you dont have aoe(flowers, fire elementals etc.) if the opponents sends brutes,mimics and or fiends. On wave10, mercs should either be completly focused or ignored so you got a chance to kill the boss without pure focus luck.
     
  6. Nacccho

    Nacccho Member

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    Untrue, Aoe is usually shit on 10, it takes to long to kill mercs with it, on top of aoe units being inately bad 10. With the exception of aqua, that kills most of the sends relatively fast, and its ok against the boss.

    What i meant by being ok in terms of strength, its because i think it should be really strong, because 7,8,9 is a bit lackluster atm, so you gotta have a wave that keeps people in check. Also having a strong meta wave, allow some mind games.
    But i didn't say it needs no change. I mean, right now the m.o is to spam t1s, simply because mathematically makes it less likely to focus your meelee DPS's. And i think this is a flaw in design.

    I would like for Tank units, such as Antler, Mudman, the new crab thing, honeyflower, to have some kind of "taunt" or target priorization on 10, just making it more likely to get focused. Again, JUST on wave 10.
     
  7. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    I think Granddaddy's strength is in a good spot. I see people skip wave 10 about 40% of the time.

    I agree that 10 feels the most RNG of any of the waves, in a bad way. A lot of it has to do with what Granddaddy decides to focus. Ideally, we could make Granddaddy always focus targets in order of when they first attacked it. It's always tricky to tweak pathing/targeting logic, but I'll talk with Lisk about it and see if this is possible or if he has any ideas.

    I think it would also be good if Granddaddy gave bounty gold based on his % missing life + an extra flat reward for killing it (so that killing it feels more rewarding than leaving it at 1 health).

    These changes would address the concerns in this thread.
     
  8. Nacccho

    Nacccho Member

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    NICE! I like both ideas, it's worth the test i figure.
    But how will that work with ranged units? The aggro queue i mean.
    Also, if it only works on meelee units for example, it will be a huge buff to berserker, youll most likely be able to hold medium sends with 1,1k value, with bonewarrior spam + 2 serks.
     
  9. Seraphon

    Seraphon Member

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    I guess it's easier to not send on 10 when you have two legion spells specifically : Press the attack and Giant Snail.
    Also, you still have some build which is really strong on 10 and really weak on 9. So obviously, you will send 9 rather than 10.
    However, I agree with the new unit - Grarl - there is less game you want to send 10.


    For sure those idea would be better. At the moment this is really too much frustrating when you place your berserker really behind and still get focus in second or third...
    Anyways, those idea could be interesting!

    Thanks you for listening ;)
     
  10. foliesseer

    foliesseer Member

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    I mean, why would you send 10 if 11 is a ranged wave with absurd focus where you can send a bonus 75 mythium / goliath snails. And even without PTA or Meme Snails 11 is still really strong to send on because they have a good defense type and a beneficial attack type against DPS units. Besides that, people tend to pick one or two units that are at least decent on 10 because they will probably leak a 0 send if they don't. However having a good composition of fighters against the tank spam on 11 is harder, since you first need your DPS to deal with the tanks and after that, you need your tanks to deal with the ranged creeps since your dps probably got sniped pretty early on after you cleared their tanks. Oh, and lets not forget that people usually build against 10 because it is such a strong wave, which generally means they are weak against 11 sends.
    Giving melee DPS units +10 range would help with that. It does not guarantee that your DPS does not get focused, but it sure helps alot.
     
  11. MonaldRektDonald

    MonaldRektDonald Member

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    For me thats a poor workaround. Its devistating when ur melee dps gets fokused first on w10. On other waves its good if you have the chance that through good positioning some of your offtanks like berserker can help with tanking. If the "tank"-units have a taunt, they gonna die pretty fast and you loose their dps. Positioning units should give you the free choice what tanks first and what doesnt. Maybe some pathing/colission ai stuff will fix it!

    Greets Monald
     
  12. foliesseer

    foliesseer Member

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    But my solution actually prevents this? I think you don't really understand what +10 range does. It puts it out of range of the immediate attack range of the king, meaning almost all other melee creeps will be focused first. However, bad positioning will still cause the DPS to get focused early which could make you leak on 10. And not only that, since it's only +10 range it still allows you to place your DPS units in a way to still give them a bit of aggro, to help the tanks take less damage. That sounds pretty good to me.
     
  13. Nacccho

    Nacccho Member

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    Its a solution for 10 only.
     
  14. foliesseer

    foliesseer Member

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    My idea doesn't have to be specific for wave 10, but it's an option. +10 Range would indeed be a good solution for 10 but on other waves it makes it a bit more consistent on who gets focused, and it allows you to place your units in a way that they still off-tank.

    I don't think it would be a bad idea to make it a 10-only feature, but I definitely see the potential of it on other waves.
     
  15. Seraphon

    Seraphon Member

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    Anyways, I guess we all agree to say the RNG is just impossible at the moment. We are all afraid to build berserker just because if they are focused first it is useless.

    I guess Lisk and Jules will balance this. We just have to continue to give them feedback to develop this game :)
     
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  16. Nacccho

    Nacccho Member

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    Nerfing 10 without buffing previous waves would be abysmal. Because races like groove and forsaken are so imbecile early, that you legit need 300ish send to leak them 10. If you dont get 'em there you pretty much lost.
    Forsaken still kind of ok, because there are a bunch of waves you can leak them late. But groove is just retarded atm, and only really weak 15.
     
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