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Wave guide: Things -info doesnt tell you

Discussion in 'Strategy Guides' started by xanarot, Oct 26, 2017.

  1. xanarot

    xanarot Member

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    Advisory notice
    If you're interested in first getting a grip on basics of the waves and building, read my other guide on https://legiontd2.com/community/threads/value-guide-offensive-and-defensive-building.10933/ . This guide continues and assumes you know the various typings, you know the waves typings, and understand you gotta match your units to counter the wave's typings.

    If you're looking arround the guide section, you've probably played a few games and know the basics. So i'm going to skip a couple of points and go straight to the specifics.


    Waves beyond the wave
    You've probably played a few games, matched typings correctly, but are somehow still leaking occasionally and are wondering why. That is because the details on -info, as well as offensive/defensive typings, dont tell the whole story. So we're going down into waves that are not-normal, to figure out their strength/weakness and understand what happens on the underlying mechanics. The part that the game doesnt tell you. The part that only shows you during fight - when its too late, you just watched a leak to mid and hand-in-hair are wondering why.



    Wave abilities
    The waves that deviate from the normal 'just kill them' are about half the waves, so for a succesfull game its quite vital you understand there's more going on than meets the eye initially. Below im going to be listing each wave with their specifics that you need to keep an eye on.

    Flying (waves 4, 17)
    Flying : this means the wave has no pathing issues (easy to swarm one of your units), and also means you cant block units by the usual sidewall positioning to lower the overall damage taken. Also means this type of wave is much less likely to spread out (again, no pathing issues) so their dps is often very focus-oriented.

    Miniboss (waves 5, 15)
    Altho the titel is self-explanatory, the concept means there's 1 unit a hell of a lot stronger (and earns you more money on kill) then the rest. That means that single target dps is a much harder requirement here. Altho this is not a direct threat, it does mean you need to have enough single target damage on your field to overcome the boss's larger health pool.

    Stun (wave 6)
    Stuns mean your units wont attack for a while, and is often accompanied by resetting their targetting (so the wave units live longer, giving more stuns..). Unprepared people get slaughtered here. Easiest way arround this is having 1 big tank and ranged dps, or a lot of melee units so the damage and stuns are spread out and your units are not locked down.

    Ranged (waves 8, 11, 15, 18)
    Ranged units seem self-explanatory, but note that your units dont start moving untill they are attacked. Also, your units gotta move in range (especialy your melee) before attacking. So tank units are often critical on this type of wave, as its not uncommon to have no frontline left by the time your frontline would arrive.
    Also, the extra movement means your units will fall OUT of their usual positioning. Suddenly no longer in range of aura's, melee dps walking in front of your should-be tanks, etc. So also positioning wise, you gotta plan ahead well in advance to be prepared for this.

    Ranged damage reduction (wave 9)
    A nasty little thing this wave 9. All its creeps (note: does not apply to sends) have a boon that makes them take 15% reduced ranged damage. So even if you are properly overbuild for this wave, value wise, you could still leak like a pinata in a kids party if that overbuild is all ranged units. For this wave its vital you have not only some tanks, but also have already begun on at least a bit of melee dps units.
    As sidenote, specifically this wave mole sends are quite common, as combined with the wave debuff it can bring your units down by 30-50% dps output overall (looking at you proton, zeus and aqua builds).

    Big boss (wave 10, 20)
    1 unit. Its loaded with HP, deals a lot of damage, its big, its nasty, and has a LOT of hp. Did i mention it has a lot of HP? This is basically a single-target dps check, but also a check on tank vs dps balance. If you lack tank value, the boss reaches your dps too fast and you loose. If you lack dps value, the boss eventually gets trough your tanks... same outcome, just takes slightly longer.

    Reduced spelldamage (wave 14)
    Title kinda spoilers it, but this wave takes 25% reduced damage from spells. Spells are a tricky thing, but this seems to mostly refer to secondary effects (i.e. zeus proc, aqua proc, violet proc, honeyblossom aoe, etc).
    Altho often not majorly important as this wave is arcane (so you dont want magic damage anyway) its still easily overlooked on why things like zeus or aqua focussed builds suddenly fall apart).

    Damage over Time (wave 18)
    Wave 18 is probably the weird duckling, in that its main damage output is a debuff the creeps apply. Believe it was 300 damage over 3 seconds, but dont kill me if im off on that number. It also ignores effects like firelord/fenix damage shield.
    The more units are attacked at the same time, the more debuff applications are going and the more damage you take. Means positioning is key on this wave, to try and get the debuff going on as few of your units as possible, as well as having a good tank line and balance in dps/tank units.

    Bouncing balls of fire (wave 20)
    A seriously misunderstood fight, this boss attacks 1 unit and then does 50% of that damage to another 3 units. Means typically you either want a huge load of melee dps to take it down fast (and, by having enough units, spread the aoe damage arround so they all stand arround a long time) or go the opposite route of a spread out ranged tanks and ranged dps so the boss goes as much 1-on-1 as possible initially to contain the bounce dps while your own dps goes to town.



    Wave characteristics
    If you were thinking that waves just had special abilities, then im going to dissapoint you with this next section. Besides unique abilities, the devs have added another flavor of balance into the game, called stats, which give a different character to each wave. Waves are made up out of variable number of creeps, with variable damage/health numbers. So besides the typings above, the wave behavior also needs to be looked at. The waves this applies to are open to discussion, its mostly to give an idea what to expect.

    The dps wave (4,7,8,11,12,16,17)
    These waves are characterized by having a metric tonne of damage. Their purpose is to kill you, fast hard and brutal, or die trying. Means you either go dps-to-dps (kill or be killed) or outlast them (serious tankline).
    Either way you better have your frontline of tanks properly set up with correct typings and enough of them so nothing walks arround the back into your dps before the wave is sufficiently weakened. So can best be considered a check of your frontlines.
    As extra note, there's both high damage and high speed dps waves. Altho not important in straight plays, when sending this will be crucial (i.e. packleader adds flat damage, so more speed is more damage)

    The tank wave (5,6,7,9,10,13,14,15,19,20)
    Aim of these waves is to outlast you, and focus mostly on high hp. The fight starts off as normal, and after a second or 5-10 you wonder why they're still there. And so many of them. And you're possible getting nervous. Can best be looked at as a dps-check, melt them down before they break your tanks.

    Wave size (6,10,13,20)
    Let me preface this by saying all waves have different numbers of units. Ranging from 1 to 18 or so. Arguably, you could also consider the bigger waves like 17 part of this (maximum number of creeps), but im mostly focussing on the low-end as they have the biggest offset in behavior.
    Most waves are 10+ units, and go up to 20+ including a big send. Those all work more or less the same - you can spread out the damage with a good tankline, and each kill lowers the dps output, and aoe units are a good addition.
    The waves mentioned above are extra small waves. 10/20 (boss, 1 unit) are obvious, but 6/13 are only 6 units and definitly deserve attention. Having such a small wave, means each unit is effectively 2-3x stronger than normal to have the same overall wave strength. As result 6,13 are often played like boss waves. Have solid tank base, balance between tanks/dps, but also send wise are considered similarly (i.e. shaman/4e on 13 if the other side saved). So its highly recommended not to underestimate those waves.




    Mixing and matching, beyond typings
    As you've probably realized by now, most waves got 2 specific characteristics as minimum, some even got 3. Take wave 6 as example. its a tank wave, with extra strong units due to its low wave size, and they stun.
    Result is that even if you absolutely nail the counter-typing spot on, you can find your unit stunlocked (no damage output, you die), or your units each focussing on a different unit 1v1, and as result again not a single one dying.
    So based on that you need something to soak up stuns, and you need single target heavy dps. And related to that, if your single target dps is melee (say nightmare/berseker) you need more units to distract the wave's stuns.


    You can use the same with your sends. Say a player that went zeus/pyro he perfectly matches the typing for W9. After all, its impact/magic damage vs fortified, both do bonus damage. Additionally, his pyro are fortified, so can handle the wave's pierce damage pretty well.
    However, the wave effect which only shows if you click on the creeps, -15% ranged damage, suddenly makes his team a whole lot weaker. So even tho his units are a perfect counter, you could actually consider a send here even trough his optimal typing setup.
    (Insider tip: zeus/pyro are both high-speed low-damage dps, so the moles flat -3 damage aura hurts - yes, our own units can be classified into the various characteristics just the same)



    Most important to realize and learn here, is that good/bad offensive and defensive typings are only half the story to be told by -info in order to succesfully hold your lane. Also for what and when to send (or when to expect the enemy to send) there's more than meets the eye initially.
    You gotta look beyond the wave, understand its underlying mechanics (what effects/abilities do they have, what characteristics do they bring, how does it kill people) and either abuse or counter that entire picture.

    Do not just counter/support the typing, but also how the wave is designed to destroy you, and things will become a whole lot easier.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2017
    Coloo, boaler, Chuckxic and 5 others like this.
  2. Themryon

    Themryon Member

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    Very good post, i learned a lot!
    You could even improve it with:
    - giving concrete examples of counters (now you stay general, which is already good, don't get me wrong)
    - add small images of the waves (instead of just the wave numbers), if that is possible, like this: [​IMG]
     
  3. xanarot

    xanarot Member

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    The reason i dont give examples to counter, is because the solution is the same as how you counter it by sending most of the time.

    I.e. counter to a ranged wave is building enough tanks to allow your side to reach the creeps and destroy them.
    I.e. send on a ranged wave is enough melee tanks (dino, centaur etc) to prevent your opponent from killing the creeps.

    Lets say if you want to kill wave 8, you want a good tankline with arcane armor. But if the enemy is going to send 2 dino's, suddenly your main target would be to have enough dps value, not enough tank value.
    Yet if you assume 2 dino's will come and go for the all-out dps , he could switch to something like packleader (or your dps could move in front of your tanks, and die first). Or if you go for ranged dps, he might even switch to sending 9 instead to abuse its -15% damage taken ability.

    As result there is no straight right or wrong answer on how to counter or handle waves. Whatever you go for, the opponent will send to counter your attempt. And if you perfectly cover all angles, you just create a new weakness to abuse instead.


    The only correct answer on counters, is knowing what and when your enemy is sending. That depends on your overall unit compositon (and roll if MM), as well as your teammates build strategy, and if they need income or not. Thats something that im not able to put into a guide, will go into wayyy to many variables.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2017
  4. xanarot

    xanarot Member

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    Update: Added W14 effect, was still missing from the overview.
     
  5. Nelson Sng

    Nelson Sng Member

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    I think it would be good to do a break down on every single possible summon on every single wave, and why that summon is better/worse

    For e.g, Is it better to send 12 snails on 18 or send a 4e etc
     
  6. xanarot

    xanarot Member

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    What does that have to do with hidden wave mechanics?

    Besides, that has to do with your counter-lane units, determing his/her weakness, nothing with the wave itself or the game mechanics itself.
     
  7. Nelson Sng

    Nelson Sng Member

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    Oh
    posted on wrong thread