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When To Send vs. Each Legion

Discussion in 'Strategy Guides' started by Jules, Oct 10, 2018.

  1. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    The purpose of this guide is not to discuss whether legions are too strong/weak, but rather to evaluate which waves each legion tends to be strong and weak against. I'm only including waves 11-21 because strengths and weaknesses are more apparent in the mid and late game and less affected by the player's starting build.

    The following conclusions are based on data, which means it's based on the average build. If an Atlantean player has mass Kingpins, you probably want to avoid wave 19, but on average, Atlantean is weak on that wave. Ultimately, when to send is very situational.

    Feel free to comment - I'm happy to update the guide based on feedback.

    Atlantean
    • Very Strong: 16
    • Strong: 18
    • Weak: 15
    • Very Weak: 19
    - Deepcoilers are arguably the best counter to 16
    - Azerias are strong on 15, but not strong enough to make up for the abundance of Natural frontline and lack of Arcane frontline
    - Kingclaw/Hydra frontline + Azeria backline = strong against 18
    - Kingpins can't carry Atlantean on 19

    Element
    • Strong: 15, 18
    • Very Weak: 14
    - Fenixes are strong on 15 and 18
    - Abundance of Magic and spell damage and lack of Arcane frontline = weak on 14

    Forsaken
    • Very Strong: 16
    • Strong: 14
    • Weak: 11, 12, 15, 17
    - Doppelgangers hard counter 14 and 16
    - Lack of Fortified/Natural frontline = weak on 11, 12 and 17
    - Green Devils and Lords of Deaths are strong on 15, but it's still a relatively weak wave
    - Forsaken is no longer a powerhouse on 20 after the Maccabeus rework

    Grove
    • Very Strong: 12, 17
    • Strong: 14, 19
    • Weak: 18
    • Very Weak: 15
    - Banana Havens are the best counter to 12, 17, and 19
    - Canopies hard counter 14
    - Grove's only Magic damage also has Natural defense, which gets shredded on 15
    - Deathcaps are strong on 18, but it's still a relatively weak wave

    Mech
    • Very Strong: 14, 15
    • Strong: 18
    • Weak: 11, 12, 16, 19
    - Veterans and Doomsday Machines hard counter wave 14
    - Veteran/Doomsday Machine frontline and Zeus backline = strong on 15
    - Fatalizer and Zeus = strong on 18
    - Lack of Fortified/Natural frontline = weak on 11
    - Tempests and boosted Veterans can be strong on 12, 16, and 19, but they are still relatively weak waves
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2018
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  2. nimea

    nimea Member

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    I dont agree to that. You usually start with pyro, get Levi, aps to tank. I think you can make a mech player leak on 11 but he can also hold it if he builds another pyro.

    All in all great job! This will help new player alot.
     
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  3. Seraphon

    Seraphon Member

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    I would say Atlant are not very strong on 14 too since they usually begin to build for wave 15.
    I don't agree. The frontline can be destroyed very fast depending on how much Hydra the player has. Atlant is okay but not particularly strong.
    After wave 15, it depends a lot about the focus of the players. Basically, he cannot build for 16-17-18 in same time. Fenix are strong wave 16 and 18 but very weak for 17. Golem are strong for 17 but very weak for 16 and 18. Aqua are quite good as dps for 17 combined with Golem as tank. But not that strong for wave 16 since your frontline will usually die fast.
    Starcaller is really strong 16-17 and ok-ish for 18. Violet is not very strong for 16-17-18.
    So Element can be strong or weak for wave 16-17-18 depending on what wave your opponent is building for.

    If the player doesn't build a dopple and prefer harbinger, he can be okay wave 12. 15 is not a particularly weak wave if he has 2-3 LoD and a frontline.
    You forgot wave 13 which is know as one of the worst wave for Grove. ^^ For me they are also weak wave 19 since they are hard countered by siege ram.

    Definitvely 11 is not a weak wave for MEch since Pyro + Leviathan is a good tank and Zeus a good dps unit against this wave. They are not particularly strong either. Just okay. Wave 12 they can be potentially okay if they activated 3-4 Veteran.
     
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  4. EinfachManuel

    EinfachManuel Member

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    11 is not a strong wave of grove. you have to go haven to be good there but then you will fuck up on 13 so you cant go haven before 13 at least on higher elo.

    Pretty simple. Be strong on 11 and 12 but fuck up hard on 13 or be weak on 11 but being able to hold 13 and trust me. you rather leak some quill shooters than 3-5 drill golems
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2018
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  5. Nacccho

    Nacccho Member

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    I know that you explained it in the title already, but if the data show that its because of deepcoiler spam being so popular.

    Any other build isn't going to be very weak there, especially the one you mentioned.

    Well, you need pretty much need a ram to leak a forsaken 11, if there is any defensive spell available. I'm not sure how that is considered weak. This should appear in the date because it is the wave most people choose to send on, because 90% of the time you cant 9 and 10 mech. So i'd say the data is very corrupt on this one.

    Yes, i guess if people have one phoenix there, you're very weak.

    If u have starcaller, rogue waves + prots, with just 1 golem and violet, you are definetely not.

    ~~
    The main problem against races is actually the early waves + midgame tho, because it take so much effort to leak a race pre 10 and it puts you on a bad spot to take advantages or their SUPER SMALL windows midgame. Also, if you look at atlantean you''l see that it isnt weak until FIFTEEN, meaning you have to get through 80%+ of the average game to get to that players weakness, how is that ok?
     
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  6. Akitos

    Akitos Member

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    That is so not true. Haven is not capable of holding big sends on 12 at all. Kingpin is by far the best 12 counter and has been for a while now.

    Dcap is.

    Not with Golem & Starcaller/Disciple. Rather mediocre 14, but certainly not VERY weak.

    Not sure where this is coming from. Forsaken is pretty darn good on 15 and both Green Devils and LoDs are two of the best units vs the wave. Forsaken aint weak 15 at all. It's also not that weak 11 if you have a Head Chef. It sucks balls 12/17 tho, that's true.

    Mech is decent 16 if you build for it. Obviously it sucks dick of you spam Zeus & DDM. 11 is okish with Levi, Pyro & Zeus.

    I could comment more and make my own strong/weak lists, but I am lazy. Sorry. Only commenting on the most outstanding things.
     
  7. Nacccho

    Nacccho Member

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    How do i play against forsaken now???

    Leaked a guy 50% on 7, 35%+ on 10, than went straight from 12 to 17, because well we all know it aint true forsaken is weak 15. Leaked him there again got them to 30%ish, but welp, it simply out ramped everybody else, despite leaking several times and being starved from 12 to 17.

    2Kish average game.

    Honestly, i don't know what the fuck i should do now that cent is dead. I send witches ok, it's kinda good against them but nothing amazing, 4eyes was already bad now it isnt even an option, im not sure why but ram seems to have dropped of hard against them also...

    Seriously guys, help.
     
  8. Akitos

    Akitos Member

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    Was to be expected that Forsaken is stupidly op now ^^ Also said so in my patch reaction when I saw the nightmare range buff. This was certainly the biggest, and likely most unseen, buff of the patch.
     
  9. Jules

    Jules Developer Staff Member

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    Looks like you played against iTs. His Forsaken build is literally designed to hold 17. His stream title was something like “best Forsken on 17” because he tries to avoid getting Lords of Death and just accepts that he’ll be weak on 15. It’s one of the reasons the data shows a potential Forsaken weakness on 15.

    I think Witch and Centaur are the 2 strongest mercenaries in the game right now. I don’t think Forsaken is particularly strong, but it may need to be nerfed if Witch is nerfed.
     
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